304 | “Some Controversial Stands”
Get Wisdom
Grab your controllers and blow the dust out of your Nintendo cartridges — today we're leveling up! You can spend decades playing the game of life without ever actually getting wiser, so how do we move off the tutorial level and start building real character? Why is enrolling in the "school of hard knocks" way too expensive when Solomon already handed us the ultimate strategy guide in the opening chapters of Proverbs? How do we stop clicking the "X" on the pop-up notifications when Lady Wisdom is shouting in our noisy streets? Join us for a fun, retro-gaming deep dive into becoming students of the art of living, avoiding unnecessary respawns, and apprenticing at the feet of Jesus to get better at being human!
Takeaways
The Big Idea: Wisdom is living skillfully, and we can spend our whole lives getting better at it.
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Welcome and Wisdom Quest
Ryan: These guys at Bible Geeks are taking some controversial stands lately. They're against sin and think it's not wise and they think truth is cool and has an advantage
Bryan: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to the Bible Geeks podcast. I'm Brian Schiele.
Ryan: I'm Ryan Joy
Bryan: And thanks so much,
everyone, for tuning in. You know, you can spend decades living without necessarily becoming much wiser.
The opening chapters of Proverbs invite us to approach life differently, To become students of the art of living, learning from God, and others, how to navigate this complicated world.
Ryan: So today we're having some fun borrowing from the world of video games to explore what it means to gain wisdom, why experience alone doesn't guarantee growth and how to become better at being human.
Level Up Sermon Origin
Bryan: All right, so uh, there are times where you send me the slides of a sermon that you're preaching just before you give it, and my brain explodes from how incredible they are. And you preached this sermon called Level Up, uh, not long ago, actually, and the entire thing was video game themed, and you had like a part A, part B, in your uh, morning and evening versions of this sermon.
I just have to say, like, it- what an incredible thought process that you must have had as as you came up with this. I was so incredibly jealous that I did not come up with this idea of video game themed Level Up sermon. So, uh, I'm excited for this conversation, 'cause we're gonna get super nerdy here.
Ryan: Yeah, we, I was asked to do something for young people first and foremost, and uh, for some reason I went to Young Ryan, and video games were a big part of that life, and so that became my defining metaphor. But what we wanna really talk about, uh, from a... obviously this is a biblical conversation,
uh,
Bryan: Welcome to The Bible Geeks.
Ryan: uh, the intro to Proverbs. really tells us a whole way to look at life. And so we're gonna use video games as our backdrop, our metaphor, but uh, I wanted to start with uh, a little bit of an icebreaker.
Gaming Icebreaker Mario Memories
Ryan: What video game have you played the most in your life?
Bryan: Uh, well, I think it's important for me to just hold up here if anyone is actually watching the video. Uh, the defining game of my youth was uh, "Super Mario Brothers" on Nintendo, the original Nintendo. I love this game so much. And I would just say, like, I think I played "Super Mario Brothers" more than any other game, and probably can just play it in my sleep. I don't know, what about you?
Ryan: Oh man, I,
Bryan: game du jour?
Ryan: that is probably the right answer for me too. It's the first game I ever had, and the first, for like getting the NES. It came with the console. It's so good. And our family still plays all the Mario games. We have a Nintendo Switch and so that's my, that... I love Mario. I've I played a lot of the fighting games through the years. You know, we did a lot of GoldenEye or a lot of,
Bryan: Oh, yes.
Ryan: you know, Street Fighter II, that kind of thing. Uh, And then some more modern games I've I've played through whenever I, like before kids mostly, let's be
Bryan: you with us in the Soulcalibur era when we played that game a lot on Dreamcast? Oh,
Ryan: yeah, we did. We had a group that was doing, doing a lot of, a lot of Soul Calibur
Bryan: Ooh, boy.
Proverbs Intro Fear of the Lord
Bryan: Well, speaking of, uh, speaking of our souls, um, we get into Proverbs.
chapter 1, uh, verses 1 through 7 here as we think about the introduction to Proverbs. And I appreciate
that you're talking about this, 'cause so often I think we we think about the Proverbs completely out, from end to end as this disparate and random collection of wise sayings, and it's not quite that, because as you're talking about here, the uh, the intro to Proverbs really does have a lot more narrative to it, a lot more instruction, a lot less of that sort of uh, whiplash feeling that you get from some of the rest of the Proverbs, if that makes sense.
But wisdom is definitely something that you're trying to actively acquire here. Um, And of course, to know wisdom, he says in verse 2, and instruction, to understand words of insight is really what, what we're after here, To know, to know what wisdom is all about and to understand. And as he closes out that section in verse 7, he says, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. "Fools despise wisdom and instruction." So don't be a fool.
You know, We're definitely in this to to get wisdom. And if that's kind of the uh, the biggest takeaway you leave with this conversation with, that's it. Get wisdom,
Ryan: get wisdom.
Simple to Skilled Leveling Up
Ryan: That's-- we'll, we'll talk about that some more, that, and, but yeah, you're right, right here in the intro, in the first few verses, there is a couple different groups that are supposed to get wisdom, but they're all supposed to be getting instruction and learning and growing. And there's a moral component to that, righteousness and justice and equity, but it is about skillfully living. And so he says to give prudence to the simple, and knowledge and discretion
to the youth, and let the wise hear and increase in learning.
So to be simple is such an interesting word. It's different than the word for fool. He's gonna talk about folly a lot, and this isn't someone who is stupid or foolish or anything like
that. It has this, the, Hebrew word has this sense of openness. Like you're, when you're young, the
whole world is possibilities, you know, and you just are wide open to everything, and so it can be a
Bryan: Yeah, we've been there
Ryan: position for learning. Yeah, not so much anymore, but we're still simple sometimes. but it can lead us to be a bit naive and open to the wrong ideas, but it also can give us the opportunity to build our character, like, you know, level one of a character when you first
start it, there's no attributes or skills or weapons collected or anything, going with our video game metaphor.
You are s- you, you have to start out at zero and go from there
Bryan: Yeah, you're going through the tutorial, right? You're on, you're on easy mode at that point. Uh, the whole idea here about leveling up is really like starting the journey.
It's starting the quest. It's getting into the, the, the day-to-day of our life and every day taking more ground on the on the pathway to getting more wisdom and to being able to handle life's challenges tomorrow the way that uh, the way that we want to.
Ryan: yeah, this is a growth mindset kind of a conversation, right, which is close to our heart. And the fact is, not everybody is getting wiser at the same rate. In fact, you can get older and not get wiser. That's, you know, I asked you, how, what if, what video game have you played the most? It's possible to play a video game a lot and not be the one that's the greatest at it.
you are wanting to to orient yourself towards this intention of not just getting through life Uh, Adrienne was talking with my kids the other day about what is life about, what is the purpose of life, and my son gave not the right answer. He said something like, it's just to survive, you just wanna get through,
And that is not the point of life. And
Bryan: it is important to survive. We do want to do that, but just a little bit more than that
Ryan: yeah, yeah, because in order to survive, like as you're-- l- let's stick with the video game metaphor, in order to face the bosses and the challenges ahead, you have to keep leveling up so that you have the skills and the, the abilities and the character that can face them and take them on. So that's kind of a a starting point here. As you look at older people, honestly, you can see that people, some people have gotten really good at life, and they're good at relationships, and they're good at how they handle money, and they're good at their marriage, and they're
good at all of these different aspects, and other people have just gotten more bitter or more lazy or more whatever.
And I, you know, I mean, it's just a reality that not every older person has developed the same way, and so we want to be growing constantly in the right direction. And whatever else we get in life, we wanna get wisdom to go with it, which is, I think, where we wanna go
Main Quest Get Wisdom
Ryan: next
Bryan: Yeah, so, uh, if, if in any game, you have an objective, you have something that you're leading to, and typically those will be your main quests. And so if we're kind of covering anything here, our main quest in life, our absolute goal in life is to get wisdom, and that's where we get into in Proverbs 4:5-9. But before we get there, uh, maybe another icebreaker question here. Silly, silly kind of thought exercise. If you could live inside of one video game for a day, what would it be and why? Why is it, uh, why would it be this game for you?
Ryan: I'm gonna go... Have you? ever played any of the Final Fantasy games?
Bryan: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. A long time ago, but
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, this was uh, an older one, but Final Fantasy X is, like, the water one where they're playing this, this sport inside the giant water ball. I don't know. It's, It's just a really cool world. So I would pick that world to live within What about you? What, uh, what, what game?
Bryan: I never got into those, uh, Final Fantasy games much. I was also not a huge Legends of Zelda, uh, kid growing up, but I did really like, um, whenever the Nintendo 64 version of Mario came out and it was basically like you just running in an open world as Mario kind of,
Ryan: It's a
Bryan: exploring around.
Uh, No, this was the s- Mario 64.
Ryan: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah,
Bryan: yeah, so you're just running around And it was kinda funny, you were talking about uh, foolishness and how it's just open. And like, you, you're kind of, there's no
objective or anything like that.
Simplicity, right?
And I, that that was like, that's the games that I love. I just love running around and doing dumb things. And like, I'm not,
Ryan: in the grass
Bryan: very rarely a main quest kind of player. I like doing the side quests. I like doing the things that are like not the main thing.
Ryan: I, I like that kind of game, too. That's really neat. My my wife
is trying to collect every single thing,
so she needs to get 100% in order to feel complete, but it, uh, I mean, we're in the right conversation here for what we wanna talk about next, which is Proverbs 4, about an objective.
And there is this counterintuitive kind of almost, almost a riddle of a thing that, um, that, that Solomon says there, "The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. And in all you're getting, get insight." And so th- what does that mean to you, Bryan?
Well, Like, in order to be pursuing wisdom, you need to have had some amount of wisdom in the beginning to understand that it is an important thing for you to base your life on. And so, you know, you kinda start off with a little bit of a, a, you know, a seed of wisdom and that propels you into having more wisdom or wanting more wisdom, I think is what he's saying. I m- I may be off base here, but I, you know, just kinda like what what gets you on the pathway towards wisdom
You get a taster bite and you, you're hungry for more wisdom, which is kinda getting getting into Proverbs 2, like y- you're seeking it like a, like a treasure and you're longing for it and you're pursuing it. you're not gonna be wise unless you make a fundamental part of your objective in life to get wiser.
Bryan: Yeah
Ryan: You know, I mean, l- I guess, uh, again, sounds obvious,
Bryan: Duh.
Ryan: but you might think you're just gonna get older and keep getting wiser and it doesn't necessarily work that way, and w- we think about all the objectives we have in life, like how do you define the game?
What is the game that you're playing in life if you're inside this game? And a lot of them you could define as getting things, get an A in school, get a degree, get a, you know, g- get get the girl, get the right spouse, or get married, or get the job, get ahead in life, get, you know, there's all these things we wanna get, or, or, you know, ultimately, get to heaven, get closer to God. Those are fundamental to what we want to do. But along along with whatever else we're trying to do, a central objective that the book of Proverbs wants to frame our lives around, if we're listening, is getting better at life itself, developing the skills that make us um, aligned with the way God has designed the world to be.
And Proverbs
is very focused on consequence and very focused on where this is gonna take us, and basic principles. It's not a book of promises, it's a book of, "Here's what usually happens if you do this. It's gonna go better for you." This is aligning yourself with the way the world works in God's good, ordered world.
Walkthrough vs Hard Knocks
Bryan: It's, it's funny, like, as I'm thinking about the video game metaphor now, it, it's amazing to me that I used to play games growing up, and I'd just run around, you know. And I would, I would die a bazillion times, y- you know, in Mario, for example. And I would, I would eventually discover and know, like, where the little hidden boxes are and where the level-ups are and where, you know, the pitfalls are that I gotta watch out for.
And I'd figure that out over time. Do you ever remember back in the day, um, the like video
game magazines would actually have like level tutorials and they would have, they would show you like where to go and what to do walkthroughs like that uh, before YouTube or anything like that. So this was like in magazines, you'd have to flip through it and uh, you'd be reading through it and you're like, okay, that's where this thing is.
And that's where this other thing is. And you get the sense that that's kind of what Proverbs is trying to do here. It's like, it's giving you the video game walkthrough. It's giving you all of the pitfalls. Hey, watch out for this. Check this thing out
over here. If you get some time, go spend this, you know, little bit of money over here in this little market that you see on the side of the map, like all, whatever it is.
And you get the sense that that so long as you're prioritizing wisdom, you can run around and you can fail. And that will teach you something so that you get better at it the next time. Kinda like Ecclesiastes in a lotta ways, but you know, you'll you'll, you'll try something, it won't work. And then you'll get back on the road because your goal is wisdom. Your goal is discernment and getting better. Or you could not face those things because you read the manual first.
You know, you read the walkthrough first. And that would actually be a
much wiser way of dealing with this stuff. So maybe that's, uh... I, I'm starting to put these things together. I think that's, that's a helpful metaphor uh, for me, thinking through what what Proverbs is even doing as a book. -
Ryan: I love that metaphor because we sometimes think of it like you have to go to the school of hard knocks
Bryan: right
Ryan: you know, it's everybody can enroll in that school, but actually tuition is not cheap. It's it's very costly to go through the school of hard knocks
And if you had the walkthrough, then maybe you can learn without dying 50 times in the game or without taking all the scars that, like, you don't live very long in this world without taking some hits, right? And you learn sometimes through pain and the loss of relationships, or the loss of of other things that honesty matters or that, you know, addiction is destructive or that,whatever. All these lessons that we sometimes learn the hard way when if, if we could get across like Solomon
is trying to get across to young people especially, and you can also listen to older people when they're talking, which is something Proverbs keeps telling you to do.
But also you wanna learn from when you do have those experiences, because you can go through those and still not learn.
Bryan: Yeah, you, you pulled up in the, in the, uh, slides for this lesson XP and HP. So I think we're kinda talking about that right now. Just, like, how much experience do you have? Uh, you know, in s- in, like D&D parlance, like what is your constitution? Like what is your, you know, some of these like attributes that will grow over time? Um, You know, and and, and what what have you gone through? And sometimes, like you're saying, experience doesn't automatically turn into wisdom. You know, just 'cause you've been through things doesn't necessarily mean that you're
Wisdom Shouts in Streets
Bryan: listening.
It's like uh, back in Proverbs 1:20 where uh, Solomon says, "Wisdom cries aloud in the street. "In the markets, she raises her voice. "At the head of the noisy streets, "she cries out. "At the entrance of the city gates, she speaks. "How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? "How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing "and fools hate knowledge?" And so just the idea that she's out there shouting and telling everybody, "Hey, listen to me."
There's gonna be a lot of people who don't listen to her, though. There's l- gonna be a lot of people who don't listen to what
wisdom is calling out for for you to do. And so, just kind of seeing that, like, to be under the the training of wisdom is going to mean that, like, I'm soft-hearted, I'm growth-minded, I want to be corrected, I wanna learn from others, I wanna continue to listen.
You know, people don't wanna listen. They don't want to, to be trained, they don't wanna grow. I don't wanna listen and grow and be trained so often. Um, But when I see that this is something that, that wisdom is shouting in my streets, like, am I willing to listen to that, is a, is a difficult question for me to kinda grapples, grapple with
sometimes.
Ryan: And when you see how much makes a difference in your life, if if like you, re- it really changes every aspect of your life and look at where she's crying out. It's not just in the synagogue or the the temple. It's not just, you know, in a mysterious cave. You have to go and seek her out in the fog in the dark of night. She's in the noisy streets, in the markets, in the city gates. She's everywhere. She's where you are, where you live. Your life is where wisdom is there available and she is not hiding.
She is screaming for you to, and it's like, the way I I did it in my slides is I- with a, a little like X on the corner and like a- an alert, like a notification that keeps, "Hey, listen to me!" Click the X. "Turn here!" Li- Click the X. And like just
constantly she's trying to get your attention and you can kinda hear Solomon just like so frustrated that not enough people are tuned in to this very available insight into how to live well. How to be human skillfully, you know, is really what, The, the word wisdom means skill and it's the word used, f- you know, Oholiab and Bezalel or, um,
Bryan: we're back
Ryan: all all of the different craftsmen, uh, carpenters,
sailors, anybody who is doing a craft, the skill of doing a craft is this word, chokhmah.
And then, you know, the wisdom books get ahold of it and say, "This is the skill of living well. This is the skill of, of artfully crafting a life as you should."
Skillful Living and Safety
Bryan: I think the, the, when I, when I taught through the Proverbs with a younger class early on, just that idea of relating it to skill. Um, you know, like, like Napoleon Dynamite, just the idea that, like, people, people love skills.
It's not just about like, you know, knowing the facts about something, but it's about being very good at actually putting it into practice in your life. And, you know, not being like unskilled where we're just like, you know, making a mess of things all the time every time we try to do something. But it's
like that skilled craftsman who, you know, they can draw a perfect circle on the board without lifting the pen because they've done it thousands and thousands of times.
And it's muscle memory for them at this point. Like, however, however you see somebody with skills demonstrating their proficiency in something, that is what wisdom should be about. It should be about that practiced living that we've been through this before. We've seen it done. We've done this 100 times ourselves, or at least we, we know enough, you know, from scripture about how to handle these things.
And we're gonna apply this in the most skillful way possible. And you know, that is uh, that is what th- chapter one at the end here, verses 32 and 33 are really talking about. She says, as she's shouting out from the street, "For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them. But whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease without dread of disaster." It's Like, s- living skillfully is not just about like, "Oh, I know a cool thing."
But it's actually the way towards safety. And if you wanna be safe, if you want to not completely, you know, have to respawn a bazillion times in the
game, you know, you're gonna get good at it.
Ryan: we see it dealing with friendship and dealing with family life and how we have fun and how we, how we eat and how we drink and how we, And pol- yeah, I mean, and just every part of life gets guidance because wisdom affects real life. you know, I, I think sometimes I've had the idea, especially when I was younger, that the Bible was teaching me how to be a religious person,
you know, that that was its main goal, as opposed to, no, it's teaching me how to be a person. It's teaching me how to be a human and how to be a human well, And, uh, and this is ultimately, of course, all of this points to Christ, who is the true wisdom of God fulfilled, who came into the world and was the perfect human and lived wisdom, embodied wisdom, and shows us as a master craftsman at this craft that we apprentice at the feet of um, how to do this well.
and it doesn't mean everything is gonna go well. This isn't like a, a health and wealth kind of thing, but it tends to work, right? The truth works.
Bryan: when we prioritize God's instruction, we have to be understanding that his instruction is for our good. And that may not feel obvious at the time. It may not stand so clearly on display as like, yes, this is the best thing for me to do. But even back into, in the garden, telling Adam and Eve not to eat from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that was for their good.
That was, that was for their, their wellness and their wholeness.
Like, obviously that's what Satan twisted it around to, to be that, oh, well, this isn't for your good. He's taking something and he's keeping a good thing away from you. And that's, that's so often what we, what we get confused about. And, you know, to see wisdom as the path to the good life, the path to to goodness that God wants us to experience.
Again, like you say, and I'm, it's unfortunate we even have to talk about it this way, but like, it's not talking about the health and wealth gospel or prosperity gospel or whatever you wanna talk about it, you know, about, but like, it really has more to do with like, when God tells us to do stuff, it's good.
and it's not like, oh, well, what specific decision should I make today uh, to check off some box?
No, it's like, what is, what does God wanna bless me with when I make that decision?
Ryan: Y
Beyond Sin Good Better Best
Ryan: eah, wisdom f- is a different barometer for measuring a
decision than it sin or is it not.
Bryan: Oh yeah.
Ryan: Sinning
is not wise so it's still in that part of, uh, you know, in, in that framework.
Bryan: is
Ryan: Uh, That goes perfectly with what we're talking about, yeah,
Bryan: we're gonna put that on the board. Thank you. Thank you, Ryan.
Ryan: These guys at Bible Geeks are taking some controversial stands lately. They're against sin and think it's not wise and they think truth is cool and has an advantage and that truth works. But, um, but, But anyways, uh, I think that
if you start to ask more questions than just, "Is this wrong?"
Bryan: Yeah. Oh,
Ryan: Then you start, your your criteria for your decision-making improves. And so some of these things that Proverbs is trying to teach us isn't necessarily this is inherently wrong, but it might
be this is not as good, what's good, better, best, you know?there is a best way, there are best practices for a life, just like any other trade that you would develop and any other skill set or uh, discipline that you're growing in. Living life has best practices. And and so, yeah, learning that helps. A
Never Graduate Keep Growing
Ryan: nd then, you know, our last part of this
Going back to Proverbs 1 and verse 5, he's not
just talking to the simple here.
Who else is he talking to?
Bryan: Yeah, he says, "Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance." And so he's, yeah, he's, i- as long as you're on this path, whether you're a fool and don't know anything or if you're wise and have understanding, you still have things to do.
And which is, you know, if if we have a drumbeat here on on the BibleGeeks, it is that uh, you're never gonna graduate in terms of your discipleship. You're, You are always on the path. It is constant growth mindset, is constantly thinking about how I can be better. And we're never gonna be like Jesus. We're never gonna fully measure up to the stature of the fullness of Christ.
We're we're always going to be lower and lesser. We'll have things we need to learn and do better at. And that's okay. Like, so long as we hear and increase in learning and obtain guidance, as he talks about here, that will lead us down the path to being more like Jesus every day.
and even Jesus himself demonstrates to us that growth mindset in we- in weird and unknowable ways. Like Luke 2:52 talks about him growing in wisdom and in stature.
you're never gonna arrive at wisdom just by the same, you know, passage of time like you do arriving at some age at some point.
Ryan: Have you found that
the people who are the wisest are the ones who are most aware of all they don't know and all that they're not uh, as skillful as they wanna be and they give a greater care? I mean, it's, it's really interesting how the people you you admire most and feel are most developed as disciples are so, co- it's like the closer you get to the Lord, the more distance you see, the more you see, like I'm closer to Him relationally, but that makes me see His glory which makes me feel s- in such contrast to the kind of love I wanna have for others, the kind of righteousness and wisdom I wanna have.
Bryan: Yeah, I, I, I completely agree. And it's just that mentality that, like, you've not arrived. And then maybe that's the whole point of this conversation is just to get, you know, whatever you are, like whether you're a young person or an older person, like ask the right questions and, you know, see yourself as clearly as possible, you know, not with like a, with negative lens or, you know, not like disparagingly, but just see that you're you're not as far along as you as you need to be and wanna be.
And rather than like, you know, living in despair with that reality, like just let it propel you into into listening better and sitting at the feet of of this great teacher, wisdom.
Final Takeaways and Farewell
Ryan: Yeah, and, and with that to
let the goal of the game you're playing every day be to get better at being like Jesus and at walking well in this world uh, so that whatever else you're trying to get done today, also think about how am I getting wiser today?
Bryan: I don't think I've thought about that in a long time. So this has been a good, uh, a good reminder just to kinda keep your... Take, take the level
of uh, visibility up a notch and prioritize wisdom in ways that maybe we just don't think of very often. I, I've appreciated this conversation, especially just thinking about all the video game tie-ins.
and, uh,
All right, everyone. So thanks so much everyone for tuning in to the Bible Geeks podcast. You can find us on our website at biblegeeks.fm. You can find show notes for this episode in your podcast player of choice, or at biblegeeks.fm as well. Uh, If you wanna reach out to us, ask us any questions, get in touch with us in some way, you can do that on our website.
There's a contact form there. And until next episode, everyone, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
Ryan: Shalom