303 | “I Love Bald Eagles Too”
Belong to Zion, Bless Babylon
They say you should never talk about religion and politics in polite company — so today we're tackling both at the exact same time! As the dust settles on midterm elections (and we finally stop reporting political texts as spam), how should Christians navigate our relationship with earthly governments without losing our minds or our unity? Why did Jeremiah tell the Israelites to unpack their boxes, plant gardens, and actively pray for the shalom of a pagan empire that conquered them? What's the right move when someone goes "bull in a china shop" inside the church group chat, or when your favorite candidate loses and everything feels doom and gloom? And how do we avoid the traps of Zealot-style activism and total withdrawal to live as faithful ambassadors of King Jesus? Join us for some Monday Morning Quarterback as we talk about ordering our loves, seeking the welfare of our neighborhoods (even our HOAs!), and remembering where our true citizenship lies!
Takeaways
The Big Idea: Because we belong to Christ’s kingdom, we can seek the good of our earthly home without placing our hope in it.
Helpful Links
- Watch Episode 303 (VIDEO)
- Seek the Welfare of the City (PASSAGE)
- Hananiah's False Prophecy (PASSAGE)
- Living as Sojourners and Exiles (PASSAGE)
- Our Citizenship Is in Heaven (PASSAGE)
- My Kingdom Is Not of This World (PASSAGE)
- Turning the World Upside Down (PASSAGE)
- Praying for Kings and High Positions (PASSAGE)
- Avoid Quarrels and Division (PASSAGE)
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Welcome and Election Fallout
Ryan: I love bald eagles. I lo- I love the freedoms that we have in
Bryan: I love bald eagles too.
Bryan: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to the Bible Geeks Podcast. I'm Bryan Schiele.
Ryan: I'm Ryan Joy
Bryan: And thanks so much everyone for tuning
in. You know, as midterm elections wrapped up this week, some celebrated, some watched in disappointment and others ignored it completely other than reporting the barrage of political texts as spam.
So how should Christians think about our relationship with America?
Ryan: How do we care about what happens here without being consumed by it? And what does it mean to seek the welfare of a place that isn't ultimately our home? This week, we play some Monday Morning Quarterback and look to the scriptures to help us think through Christian civic engagement.
Bryan: Well, sir, there is nothing that people like talking more about than both religion and politics. And so let's just tackle both of them together uh, on the heels of our Bible Geek-tober where we were kinda getting super nerdy about things.
Uh, we're trying to get some practical conversations here to kinda kick off November. And November is typically election season. So this is gonna be uh, probably timely, maybe a little bit late, of course, because the the elections will have mostly happened by this point. But uh, I, uh, I definitely am interested in your take on some of these big topics like uh, religion and politics.
Ryan: Yeah, likewise How should we engage with not only voting, but all of the, the issues, the conversations that are happening? you know?
Personal Politics Journeys
Ryan: Um, are, Are you the kind of person that every year goes in and gets your your little I voted sticker and preps ahead of time do you and Cherlynn have conversations about your votes or do you kinda tune it out or what's your approach?
Bryan: Oh, we're gonna get into it here in this conversation, but I am, uh, let's just say most people would be disappointed with how uh, much or little I pay attention to these things.
I am uh, not the bury-your-head-in-the-sand kind of person, but I am very, very uninterested so often in the details, I suppose, of a lot of these things. And uh, you may sway me one direction or another, uh, depending on how this
conversation goes, but I don't really spend that much time talking about it, um, especially just because of the division that so quickly pops up around some of these things and the heated conversations and things. Not that like, I don't wanna tackle that stuff, but it definitely does not uh, seem like a great way to spend my time.
How about you? I, I'm guessing you're probably like, building spreadsheets and uh, creating some sort of like, uh, caucus or something going on at home like, with you and your family. Like, What's happening
Ryan: The Joy Family Caucus. Uh, y- Well, the, no spreadsheets. You're the spreadsheet guy.
Bryan: true. that's true, yes.
Ryan: And I have definitely gone on my own journey from, on this whole thing and still on one. and,I try to know what the issues are I'm gonna be talking about. I try to... I, I try to vote.
I used to be much more invested and then I got discouraged. There was times when I felt like, you know, this cultural battle that was going on was you know, really central. And then times when I felt like, "No, I'm getting so confused about what the real battle is that I'm trying to fight. M- you know, And then the, my idealism has taken some hits over the years to cynicism. And so it's, it's uh, like, I'm sure a lot of people, there is a a lot of feelings, maybe baggage and commitments.
We wanna do well, but we also don't want to let um, lesser things become the main thing.
Scripture du Jour: Jeremiah 29
Ryan: So yeah, as we, as we kind of maybe dive into this, I think we're going to start out with a scripture du jour
Bryan: Yeah, so scripture du jour here, uh, Jeremiah 29 I think is where we're headed here. We're uh, setting the stage.
for, uh, like Why would we go to Jeremiah in this conversation about modern politics, because obviously, the candidates and the issues are not present here in Jeremiah 29, but what is?
Ryan: What's present is life as an exile, which is?
w- how Peter describes us in, in First Peter, uh, chapters one and two. And we are not living in Israel. We are, you could say living in Babylon, which uh, I don't mean that as a diss to America, but this is the world that we live in. is, is This this world is not our home. We are in a kind of uh, pilgrimage here amid a people who are living a different culture with different laws than our homeland and with a different king. And so we wanna think about what does the Bible say about exile life?
And it gives us a whole ethic and lots of examples of gr- of people who engaged with their homeland or with the land where they were living while still keeping their identity separate.
Bryan: Yeah, and this would probably be one of the ones that uh, gets like, uh, printed up on a fancy frame somewhere in someone's home or whatever, J- uh, Jeremiah 29, verse 11.
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. I know the plans I have for you.
this world is not our home. Like you said, we're not gonna sing the song, but boy, it is definitely helpful for us to come up for air and realize what's most
important. And it's not red v- versus blue.
And God in all of this has a plan for us, as he did for them. And so just to remember that I think uh, is a helpful way to kick off this discussion a little bit, thinking about Jeremiah.
Ryan: Well, and you, you read Jeremiah.
29:11, like you said, the most famous part of this. But the context of this, this is a letter that Jeremiah sends from y- you know, from afar to
the people in Babylon and there are prophets who are telling them, "Hey, you're about to come back." And Jeremiah wants them to know, "No, you're gonna be there a while and here is how you should live in this place."
And so I, I'd like to, if, if it's okay with you, maybe we read a little bit more of
Bryan: Yeah, back
Ryan: Going,
Seek the City's Shalom
Ryan: yeah, back to maybe verse five, he's writing to the exiles from Jerusalem to Babylon. and He says, "Build houses and live in them, plant gardens and eat their produce, take wives and have sons and daughters, take wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters, multiply there and do not decrease."
And then here's a big one. "But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare, you will find your welfare." So this is Babylon is the city he's saying to pray for, the ones that are evil and conquered Israel and and brought destruction to the temple and, and all of those kinds of things. But God wants them to know you're here to seek the welfare or literally like the shalom of the people, the wellbeing, the peace, the wholeness, all the, the the good of this place where you are.
And so while he doesn't want their identity to become that they are Babylonians, he wants them to stay Israelites who serve a different God and have different laws of different cultures. He wants them to seek the wellbeing, pray for, settle in, And we see lots of examples. I mean, when you think of the examples of exiles who were a big part of the land that they were living, who do you think of?
Bryan: Oh, well, I mean, I'm thinking of people like Joseph probably
in Egypt, um, and just how prosperous Egypt was under Joseph's reign and during the mi- you know, in the midst of this famine that's going on, that uh, he is bringing about the welfare of Egypt. And and it turns out, because like, because Egypt is so blessed, then in turn, God's people are able to flourish there in their presence. And and that's, I think, the whole point. It's not to say, like, well, we really love Egypt, or you know, here in Jeremiah, we really love Babylon, or whatever.
And to back up, in, in chapter 28 of Jeremiah, there's this other prophet, Hananiah. And you were, you alluded to it, but this other prophet, Hananiah, is basically saying, look, you guys are gonna be there for like two years. And so if you think, hey, I'm only gonna be, gonna be here for two years, then yeah, I don't think I'm gonna unpack very many things.
Like right now we're, uh, we're renting a house here in Plainfield, and I'm gonna just, like, I'm not unpacking as much as possible. Like, we've got still stuff in boxes.
And I think that's what's going on here, is Jeremiah's having to get the people to realize, no, no, like, you're gonna be here for a long time.
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Bryan: so just settle in, Ca- uh, bed down and make your home here so that whatever's going on in this home, homeland will bless you too. And Joseph was, they were
gonna be there a long time in Egypt. -
Ryan: Absolutely. I mean, then You think of
Daniel, a great example. You think of Esther, you think of, I mean, like in some ways, Paul becomes this interesting example. He is a Roman, but that's not really his identity. He's a Roman citizen,
um, but he has, uh, when he describes his citizenship, ultimately it's, you know, Philippians 3.20, our citizenship is in heaven, from which we eagerly await a savior, the, the true king that we're serving.
And so we become this sort of embassy in this world, ambassadors of uh, an otherworldly kingdom. And as we go, though, I think what we wanna take from Jeremiah 29, as we, we move on, kinda having laid that foundation, is that we're not disengaged from what's happening here.
So we're gonna seek their welfare through prayers, as Paul commands, and, and um, we're gonna pay our taxes, and we're going to recognize that the policies that are put in place are going to affect our lives and our churches, as well as all the people around us, who we care about. But we also just recognize this ball game is won or lost on a different field completely.
Bryan: Man, we're, uh, we're mixing in the metaphors all over the place.
Monday Morning Quarterback
Bryan: Uh, let's move on here in our conversation 'cause I think this is a good way to set this up. Let's move on to a little segment that we like to call Monday Morning Quarterback Okay, so we're going super slow-mo and uh, you know, just asking this question, like how should Christians engage in this world of politics and everything that we've got going on?
But just let's think about some scenarios that we might be going on or going through whenever we're talking about politics and voting.
Scenario Church Group Chat
Bryan: And I think this first scenario that we've got uh, to consider is the church group chat. So uh, I think all of us can relate to this in some way. There's a brother who decides to post a uh, strongly worded poli- political message in the group chat, and uh, he's arguing that no faithful Christian could vote for particular candidate, A, B, or C, whoever that is. And so a bunch of members in this group chat agree, and some other people go silent.
You can totally see this happening. Um, Ryan, what is your move when this goes down? And uh, do you decide to speak up? Do you take him aside privately and challenge him? Do you just kinda sweep it under the rug and let it go? Or do you just agree that there are some political choices that really matter uh, uh, in our Christian faithfulness to the Lord?
Ryan: Do I have to pick just one of those?
Bryan: Yeah, '
you
Ryan: cause
some,
Bryan: you can, uh, you can,
potpourri this one. go
Ryan: yeah, some, some choices do matter. And one of the things we can do with a move like is happening in this imaginary group chat is shut down the conversation to all of the different uh, perspectives that we need to weigh, all of the different scriptural principles that we wanna be led by, that kind of thing. And,embarrassing and shaming anyone who has a different concern that they're, they're thinking about.
So I w- I would probably, depending on my relationship, I might engage them privately, um, or I might engage the whole chat to say, well, here's what I would add to what you're saying, and I hear, you know, I would affirm them, but also say, here's some other things to think about, and here's a passage that I have in mind. What does everybody else
think about this?" kind of thing. What about you?
Bryan: Yeah. Um, I mean, that, that's definitely the more, thoughtful way of handling it. It, it is so easy just to go bull in a china shop about all this stuff, and, you know, it sounds like this person, whoever is is adding to the conversation first, is kind of the bull in a China shop in this situation. They are kind of asserting their position and trying to tell other people they're wrong. And you know, it it just does not add to a very good conversation.
That's not really a conversation. And so I would probably just approach this person maybe on the side or as part of the group chat,
But I don't ever want to make somebody feel like they are not valued, or I d- I'm not willing to listen to them based on the way that I might respond to some group chat like this.
So I would probably, like you say, jump in there and just try to build a bridge and maybe be a Paul for Philemon and Onesimus here, kind of that uh, mediator, middle ground, to try to get the conversation really happening well and making sure people listen to each other well.
Ryan: Yeah, you could also just shift the whole conversation to away from the politics if you see that this is not gonna be a profitable engagement with this group, and because what we really care about as Christians are the why
underneath some of these things. And, um, you know, so those those issues, like biblical issues are all over politics, right?
And whether it's, you know, uh, the sanctity of life, or whether it's love for neighbor, or whether it's, you know, all, all different kinds of issues that we might um,
But let's go on to a second scenario here.
Scenario The Exhausted Christian
Ryan: This is the exhausted Christian, which, you know, I have been a person who could relate to that at after election season. A friend tells you, "I'm done with politics. "I don't watch the news, I don't vote, "and I don't wanna hear about any of it. "My citizenship is in heaven." How do you respond? Is this a healthy rejection of political idolatry,
or an abdication of responsibility? I-- It sounds like maybe you could be this friend talking to me, maybe.
Bryan: Uh, I would tell this person I completely understand where you're coming from, and I think you may h- be more right than you are wrong. Um, I don't know that I don't know that it's entirely... Like, the, the part of this that I would have trouble with is the I don't vote part.
Um, you know, there have been election seasons that I've been through where I did not vote um, because specifically I just didn't, I didn't feel like any of the candidates were really somebody that I could cast my, my recommendation for.
And, you know, it, it It is
difficult because like you say, s- so often we're thinking about, you know, either really specific issues that, that are on the table um, or we're thinking about a candidate specifically and their character and how they're going to lead and things like that. And it, it's difficult to kind of bridge the gap and understand uh, what it is that, that's important to you. Um, I think, you know, from looking at Jeremiah 29 and from seeing how important that was for them as exiles in Babylon, that helps clarify some things.
However, I also think that when I look to the story of Jesus and I look all throughout the gospels, there are very, very few instances, if if many at all, of Jesus going like full politics at people. Um, I mean, he was, he was in- involved in the politics of the kingdom and uh, not the kingdom of of Rome or anything else at the time. Like this was, he was talking most specifically about his kingdom and and promoting that. And I don't think that he really spent a lot of time talking about the Caesars or anything else that was go- Like, yes, he paid his taxes, but he only brought that up when people were pressing him about that question. And I feel like there is, you know, I'll just say a level of uh, the pie chart of our conversation and our attention that is given to politics versus s- more spiritually dominant things in my mind that I I feel like it's probably, It, it, it makes sense for me why somebody would prioritize that stuff less. Now, if you're exhausted about it and it's completely, you're just like apathetic towards it, is kind of a different response than like, I have placed this in proper uh, priority order in my life and here's where I'm most comfortable dealing with it.
So I don't know if the response to this person is just throwing up their hands or if it's actually like a really thoughtful, well-reasoned response, but I'd probably pull on that thread and just try to figure out the why, the why behind uh, you know, their their distance from the topic.
Ryan: Yeah, your discussion of the pie chart is helpful, I think, of like, how much of our conversation and thought ends up around this, and what is the appropriate, like if Jesus could draw our our pie chart, what would that look like? Uh, s- I heard a quote
um, this past year that almost every reaction is at first an overreaction.
And
so if we're reacting to something we're seeing that's not done well, which is w- which is what I've experienced in that journey that I talked about, um, then maybe we go too far with it, like you said, and we're, now we're just totally
Four Approaches
Ryan: withdrawn. maybe this is a good spot really briefly, a little interlude, to think about different strategies we see happening in... among the Jews trying to engage or figure out what to do with Rome and the the government empire that, th- that's around them.
Um, and, And so four different approaches that I pulled out here in, in preparing for this is, w- one is to fight, fight for the nation, um, and this is an extreme example, but you think of Simon the Zealot
and the
Bryan: thinking about the
Zealots. Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, exactly. Now, that's a very, f- very literal fight.
but political activism where our whole identity and the way we think we are faithful to God is by, is through trying to take responsibility for public policy and defending righteousness in that, and it can become a misplaced hope that if I can get these things right, then America can be what we want it to be or the world can be what we want it to be.
And that's not, like you say, where
we see Jesus going with it.
Bryan: Your response, it there, uh, just before we move on, is really helpful. You know, thinking about political activism and fighting for the nation as a means to try to get, let's just say, for our modern day, America back onto, on track where
it needs to be a nation under God, which there's a whole conversation about that anyway.
But
you know, we could, we could fight for good leadership and we can fight for all of these things i- politically, but like, is that really going to change people and their hearts and make them citizens of a heavenly kingdom? Or is there something deeper that needs to be done that then the political side of things would flow out of? And I feel like it's, it's the other way around for me.
It's not the... It's not fighting for politics, but it's fighting for people's souls. And in fighting p- for people's souls, then the solution to politics would naturally flow out of that if our, if our society did have a love for God and a love for, for our neighbor.
Ryan: it. speaks to like, you know, sometimes the issue of slavery in the New Testament comes up or different things we see happening in, you know, or the overthrow of Rome, who was not not the best empire or something. like, uh, the, the, um, the Christians could have made just causes their whole
mission to transform the world, but instead they turned the world upside down by preaching this King Jesus, as Acts 17 talks about.
And it's an inside-out change that if we bring that change, if we bring the gospel, then the whole world gets set right. I mean, It Doesn't mean we're not grateful for the progress that has been made since the Roman Empire or since Babylon, and that we don't want to continue that, or that we're not concerned about the the things that aren't going in the right direction.
We speak up about those things,
So, you know, another way to do it that you know, you're you're tangling with, you're thinking about, or that person that maybe uh, we're interacting with that's exhausted would be political withdrawal, where we just, I gotta get away. This is the Amish, you know, um, I think Jehovah's Witnesses don't vote or engage with anything um, in in this way. In Jesus' time, there's groups like the Essenes who have withdrawn themselves, or even like the community that, that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Qumran community seems to be
this withdrawn little community.
We're gonna go off to our monastery and withdraw from the world completely. And that doesn't seem like what Joseph or Paul or any of them are doing. They're not utterly withdrawn. They are seeking the welfare of the city. They're praying for even these unrighteous rulers to let us keep serving God
in the right way and for good things to come and righteousness to prevail. So I don't think that's it
Bryan: Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't think completely withdrawing is ever the solution either. Um, neither is just kind of going along to get along in the idea that we're just fitting in, um, maybe in like the, uh, the assimilation kind of, of way, where we
Ryan: Like the Herodians of Jesus' time
Bryan: Y- yeah, where we're just kind of allowing everything about our politics to kind of, I don't know, obscure our faith in Jesus or to shape our view of, of our service to the king rather than the other way around.
And I think that's what I was most concerned about. I mean, kind of tied into um, fighting for the nation or fighting for our, for our, you know, not fighting for our country like in in terms of the military, but fighting for like political activism. You know, Jesus even said like, "My kingdom's not of this world. "If it were of this world, my people would be fighting." So we would be out here fighting if, if this was what the kingdom was all about.
And sometimes we wanna take the politics and apply it to the kingdom rather than letting the kingdom apply to to our politics. And just that idea that there is a line there. And I think that's where all of this becomes difficult because we hate nuance, generally speaking. We hate, We hate a, a middle line. It sounds wishy-washy. It sounds like unclear. You know, when I'm trying to define what's right and, and and find this kind of happy medium between both extremes, people dislike that a lot.
And, you know, of course we can we can go on the activism side or we could go on the just assimilation side. but There's somewhere in the middle of that that I think w- that's what we're really getting towards.
Exile Identity and Ordered Loves
Bryan: It's, It's the exile ethic. It's understanding, like, I'm here, I'm not trying to leave, I'm not trying to be like everyone here, but I'm also not, you know, I'm not so dedicated to this place that I, I wanna just be like everybody else and I never wanna leave here.
Like, that's the idea. is like, you go camping and you don't really wanna live out in the woods, but it is fun to visit there for a little while. Um, I don't I don't wanna spend my entire, I wanna, I wanna get back to a, uh, my bathroom and my shower and my, my refrigerator at some point. Like, I wanna go back home and that should be the longing that we all have in this in this hopeful outlook that we have for the new heavens and new earth, where, you know, no matter uh, what we do in politics, it's never going to bring the kind of shalom, peace, uh, protection, love, security, safety, presence with God that we'll ever have uh, here on this earth.
Ryan: That that is a big part of it. Hope, what is our hope? What is the salvation we're seeing? Who is the Messiah we're looking to? You know, it, it's, It's not gonna be any, that you can find the most perfect candidate.
They are not the one. Uh, Doesn't mean we don't support them. When we find a great candidate, that's great. you know? But we don't support them like we do Jesus. This is-- He's our king. And
I am a Christian who happens to be American, not an American who happens to be Christian. And that sounds obvious, but
Bryan: don't think it's obvious. Honestly, I, I, I don't think it is. I think we have... I- just from my own experience, I, I have seen so many Christians who identify more with Am- being an American than they do with being a Christian, and even to have it pointed out to them really rubs them the wrong way.
Because what are you saying? You don't love America? Well, of course I'm, I'm not saying that. Like, I'm not, I, I love this country. I love where we're at. I love the freedoms that we have here. Of course, all of that can be true, while also saying, if I was living in Russia right now, I would have very similar feelings probably towards my king, my true king, and I'd have very, probably more critical feelings about my nation, and it doesn't mean that, Y- you know, we just kind of, I think, live so myopically sometimes where we only can see it through our own lens and in our own neighborhoods,
and, you know, just to separate the two things as clearly as we can in our own brains is going to be, um, it's just gonna be helpful for us in the long run.
Ryan: A- And I, I grew up with a deep love for this
country You know, like patriotism is a big part of my family and my thinking. And I, I, I love the constitution and I love, you know, um, I love bald eagles. I lo- I love the freedoms that we have in
Bryan: I love bald eagles too.
Ryan: I mean, bald eagles,
are like uh, that's a... that became my favorite animal because I love America, you know? The, That whole idea of um- this is, it's, it's a, it's a set of ideas that go with being part of this country. And I, I assume a lot of countries and a lot of throughout history have had, you know, their-- Rome had ideals that people really loved, even when Nero was the the emperor, you know?
Um, And so there is something that I love about this, but there are, diff-- you have to order your loves, right? And there are different levels of what I love. And I l- I love that other kingdom in a totally different way because I love that king. And he teaches me how to be wherever I am in the right way.
Yeah, so th- that that brings us back to one last, you wanna do one more of those scenarios?
Bryan: Yeah.
Scenario Day After Election
Bryan: So we've got this, uh, we've got this day after election scenario. So of course, uh, the candidate who you loved so much and who you championed for, uh, they lost, as, as will happen. Uh, and you are so concerned about the direction of the country, and the future of your children, and the potential consequences for the church.
You know, you can just see that there's persecution coming and it has become like doom and gloom very quickly here. Um, What does your faithfulness look like the next morning and what should you do with your disappointment? Is this a time to pray about this? Uh, What should change? What shouldn't? You know, How do you counsel somebody? How do you talk somebody through this scenario when they've basically become despondent and pretty negative about the outlook of things?
Ryan: You know, this is something that we dealt with a lot. I, I dealt with in my conversations with people in the church here, m-more so in the last presidential elections are the big ones, right?
This-- We're, we're, We're in midterm season now, And so we can just prepare for the next year and a half, you know, or the next two years to just be full of this kind of anxiety that if the wrong person is in presidential office, if the wrong party controls the Senate and the house, whatever, then you don't even want to imagine the downfall that is going to happen and what the world will look like.
And there was so much anxiety from especially some of the older saints here that are, are very wise and I love them very much um, but we had to kinda calibrate as we were having these conversations that it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that even some of these ideas might be true that, that it could get bad if the wrong candidate gets in place maybe but this world has been turning a long time. Empires rise and fall. I don't say that lightly but whatever happens, that is not our hope.
Our hope, our confidence, our trust, our, our foundation will not be shaken no matter what. We know who we are. We know whose hands our children and their lives are going to be in Um, and, and so that kind of hope and joy and peace in the face of an unstable world is what Christians have brought to the storyline for 2,000 years. This is what the book of Revelation is about. This is what so much of Jesus' message brings is, is look what has already broken into the world, a different kingdom that will last forever.
Bryan: I'm just thinking about, like,
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego here. Um, just the idea that they didn't have any idea what God was going to do, yet they trusted what he had promised to them, and trusted that basically that if they didn't bow their knee that he was gonna take care of them in in the end, whether now or later.
And I just, like I understand the need to be praying for and wishing for and sincerely hoping for peace as far as it depends on us and a a good quiet life. All of that makes sense to me, but there are so many times in scripture where suffering is talked about and trials are talked about as formative and positive and beneficial. And even in all of that, we see that God is with us and he's there and that he's not gonna let us go and that his covenant loyal love is going to be with us.
And it's just, it's a reminder that like, boy, see past it. Like, obviously don't ignore it. Don't, Don't say like, well, it's not there and it's not really happening, but see it, acknowledge it, but have hope past it and, and through it. And that's easier said than done sometimes for sure. Um, But just the perspective that you brought out, I think is helpful as well, is that the world has been
turning for a very long time.
And in my 40 some odd years on this planet, there are very few times that I can really remember a particular candidate coming on the scene and my day-to-day life really changing all that much. I mean, I'm sure that that is not the case for everyone else. And I know I'm a I'm a middle class, you know, Caucasian male in America, but I know that there, you know, so often the people who are concerned about that the most are actually probably the people who don't have to worry about it as much.
And that there are ge- genuine, genuinely people who will struggle because of one candidate or another. But in all of that, like, can we just see past it and see that God is in control Um, and see that we still have a responsibility to help each other. So when somebody is impacted financially by a political candidate's decisions that they make, like, can we step in and be of service? Can we use those opportunities to draw them closer to to the Lord and, you know, show our love for them more and more?
Like, there's just, there's always an option here to look towards positive things. And if we can't, if we can just cultivate that behavior, that that response more frequently,
Ground Rules and Unity Warnings
Bryan: I think we'll be in a lot better spot. -
Okay, so this whole conversation, um, you know, we may not have come to any, like, clear, defined rules about how
Ryan: We solved it.
Bryan: We solved the whole problem. It's great now. Uh, but at least kind of gave some ground rules for thinking through some of these things
and at least kind of walked through our thoughts on some of the wrong ways that we might take um, in dealing with these things.
And I just wanna say, you know, sort of in summary or maybe to take away here,
we run the risk of, like, Titus chapter 3, we run the risk of, you know, these moments where we could become divisive, that we could become the source of people splitting uh, or, or stumbling even, Um, Romans 14, Romans 15, just thinking about our relationships with each other is so important.
but it's just to say that, like, use your discernment, find what, what you find to be important and vote with that in mind and hold loosely, I guess, the ways that you either weaponize or, you know, teach other people or command other people the things that you've come to some conviction about Uh, because at the end of all of this, like, this kingdom, this nation, where we're at right now is amazing and may God continue to bless America and wherever you live, if you're not an American, may God continue to bless your country as well.
Um, But this world is not our home. And if I
can remember that, then I think I'll be in a in a lot better spot when these conversations come up. -
Ryan: Yeah, that's really good.
Local Politics and Gospel Kingdom
Ryan: Uh, a couple things that I was thinking about as we kinda wrap up here. One is there's this old saying, uh, all politics is local politics.
Like, uh, We have such a connection through news media and everything to national and world politics. And that's, it's good. Some-- You know, it's good to know. I'll be up every election watching that map get filled in and seeing the numbers and everything. Um-
Bryan: You just like the gamification of it all. That's what it really is,
Ryan: It is interesting, But, but the stakes are real. And yet, the place that my
biggest influence and where I'm meant to live and seek the welfare of the city is right here in my city, is right here in the relationships I have, how I engage the conversation here.
Not just the votes I place at our voting booth, but the votes for my HOA,
or the way that I go and volunteer somewhere, or the way that I...
um
Bryan: I didn't realize we were talking about HOAs. This changes the whole game here. W- we need to redo this.
I see what you're saying though,
yes.
Ryan: just happens that that, uh, vo-voting is happening at our HOA this Saturday as well. So that was in my brain as I look at our street right
here. But you know, th-the idea that like, um, there are people in need right here, there are issues that really matter right here. And so th-thinking about myself as someone who can, um, who can make a difference, because that's one of the things that starts to get overwhelming is is who am I? What real- What difference does one vote make?
What difference does one voice make? H- And it makes a difference. You've never seen "It's a Wonderful Life," but once you see it, you'll know that one person can make a difference. It just seems small when you're doing it. So that's that's one thing. And then the other thing, r-really briefly, is just the idea that the gospel takes all of these political terms and applies them to Jesus, which I think tells us something about politics, that Jesus is the Lord.
He has a kingdom. All these terms like, you know, gospel itself is a political term in in the world in which these things came about. And so to see people turning the world upside down by saying there's a different king, it's not Caesar, it's Jesus, and there's a different gospel, and there's a different law, and we're part of something else, it is inherently political, but it's political in a very different way than this world plays politics.
And we're not gonna vote for our leader, and we're not gonna, we're not gonna go to war to fight for our kingdom. We're gonna show up and love people and speak a message that is going to disorient them and their values and make them think, "I-- That, that almost doesn't make sense, but wait a minute, maybe it does. And um, that's where lives are changed. and, And like you said earlier, that, that inside out transformation is the heart of how we really make a difference for America, for the world, for anything.
Bryan: Yeah, it's, uh, it's almost like we have a very different set of weapons to use in this very different, uh, spiritual warfare that we're engaged in. And, uh, you know, may God continue
to bless us to, to have the freedom and the, the opportunities to practice our faith without somebody throwing us in jail.
But if not,
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Bryan: let's, uh, let's continue to trust God that he'll be with us.
Wrap Up and Next Episode Tease
Bryan: So thanks everybody for tuning in to the Bible Geeks podcast as we talked about politics and religion. And hopefully nobody
uh, turned this off halfway. If you did, well, you didn't hear this anyway. So uh, we'll uh, be up for another episode here coming up soon. we've talked a lot in the past about development and discipleship and pushing forward in wisdom and discernment.
And so on the next conversation, we are going to play a little bit of a video game talking about how we level up uh, in our discipleship and in following Jesus. So looking forward to that conversation and uh, reach out to us if you need anything or if you have any questions, we'd love to get in touch with you. And until next episode, everyone, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
Ryan: Hello