Mini: Dating Revelation
301 | Geektober | “A Turtle, Not a Frog”
Aim to See Revelation in Context
Geektober gets apocalyptic! When we talk about “dating Revelation,” we aren’t taking the last book of the Bible out to dinner — we’re asking when John actually wrote it down, and why a gap of just a few decades changes the entire story! Why did Ryan get dragged “kicking and screaming” from the late date to the early date after a year-long study? Who’s the mysterious “great city” where the Lord was crucified, and why is John told to measure a temple that hasn’t been knocked down yet? How does connecting Revelation to Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 23 and 24 bring the whole Old Testament covenant arc to a satisfying close without falling into false AD 70 doctrines? Join us for a fast-paced mini-episode that swaps out the frog for the turtle so the Bible’s final punchline finally clicks!
Takeaways
The Big Idea: The book of Revelation beautifully concludes the Bible’s written story.
This Week's Challenge: Read Revelation 11:8, 17:18, and 18:24 alongside Matthew 23:34–38. What connections do you notice?
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Revelation Dating Intro
Bryan: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to the Bible Geeks Podcast. I'm Bryan Schiele.
Ryan: I'm Ryan Joy
Bryan: And thanks so much everyone for tuning in.
You know, when was Revelation written? And why would a few decades make such a huge difference? In this mini episode, we're gonna explore two main dates and discuss how the date actually changes the overall story.
Ryan: we'll also discuss why I changed my mind, kicking and screaming the whole way and how a different historical setting might help the Bible's last book click.
Bryan: All right.
Why Dates Divide
Bryan: So,, when you approached me with this topic of dating revelation, and, then subsequently posted a question on your Facebook page, asking your audience about, their opinions on dating revelation, it was pretty interesting how quickly I saw everyone's opinions and takes on it divided.
So, I'll- I'm, I'm excited for this conversation 'cause I actually don't know where you stand on the date of revelation, and I was kind of trying not to look at that post as we,, as we got ready for this discussion.
Ryan: Well, and I was trying not to, hammer a position too hard early, I, I tell the story of studying with, our friend Michael Eldridge that we've had on here, and, and another friend of mine named P- named Hank, and we studied for about a year through the book of Revelation, and they both took an early date, and I took a late date, and, I like to say they drug me kicking and screaming to the early date. I mean, I... At every turn,it's kind of like whenever one of my kids tells a joke and they get something a little bit wrong in the telling of it, in the setup, and then the punchline doesn't really work, and you're like, "What? I don't, I don't understand," and then they're like, "Oh, no,
it was supposed to be a turtle, not a frog," and you're like, "Ohh, okay, I get it now."
that's my initial opening to why I think this matters. Does,, do you find this subject interesting?
Bryan: Uh, y- I do, and it's interesting?
Revelation Feels Intimidating
Bryan: that so many people have strong takes on it,
It is just interesting though, by the way, just to to kick this conversation off, how intimidating Revelation can be as a book. And I think it's one reason why we tend not to focus on it, because it's, it's apocalyptic and it's weird. And you know, we can really easily get ourselves wrapped around the axle with numbers and the, the,, all of the different imagery and things like that. And I do think though that this book is here for a reason, and it's still helpful for us to understand that reason today.
So I- I'm hopeful that,, that yeah, we can treat this topic well and do it in a really quick mini fashion. So
Ryan: yeah.
Clarifying AD 70 Views
Ryan: I do wanna make clear really quickly at the beginning, we are not saying there, there are some people I, you know, think of them as like r- radical preterists or full preterists that teach a false doctrine, th- this AD 70 doctrine that all everything was, was done in Jerus- you know, with the fall of Jerusalem and, that the Lord isn't coming again, that this whole thing is gonna keep turning and, you know, all those things have been fulfilled. That's not what we're talking about. Just to be clear, we, you know, that the end, the end, the new Jerusalem, the new heavens and new earth are,, will, will come, there will be a judgment, there will be a resurrection.
All of these things are, are still ahead, the end, the very end of the book of Revelation. But what we're talking about here is, the, you know, begin the majority of the book, right? Through the first 18 chapters., What is this about? I-I- Is there a historic fulfillment?
Why The Date Matters
Ryan: but maybe we, we could start by asking, how do you think reading a prophecy before or after the destruction of Jerusalem, like why does, why do you, why does the date matter from your perspective?
Bryan: Well, I mean, I think the, the reason why people think it matters is because you're trying to associate historical events with the, the imagery that's being brought up in these, in these prophecies or in these,, visions or, you know, all the things that John is seeing here.
you wanna know if he's using this figurative language and all of this apocalyptic imagery, you wanna know who he's talking about. So is he talking about you know, this king who's you know, going on and doing all this nonsense to the people or is he talking about this event that's going on with the, with the, you know, temple being destroyed or whatever?
So I think that's why it's important,, u- unless there's another reason deeper than that
Ryan: No, yeah, I mean, I think that if it's hard for him to be predicting something that has already happened, right?
So let, let's ask this this other perspective,
though.
Case For Late Date
Ryan: W-What makes the later date of view worth taking seriously? And I don't know if you've ever studied that question or looked at the Book of Revelation from that late date.
What do you find compelling there?
Bryan: Yeah, Like, with the, the conditions of the churches, I think is one of the bigger,, compelling things. When you look at where the churches are in the beginning of the book of Revelation, they seem to be somewhat far down the path, not quite as like they'd just been established, they'd just been set up.
It, It kind of sounds like they're they're later on in their development, maybe second generation believers, third generation believers, Not, not entirely like they were just planted as churches, which they would have to be probably if this was a, an earlier date kind of kind of writing,, but that seems pretty subjective anyway. I'm not... That's definitely not, the most compelling reason for it. What, What are some of the obvious like big-ticket items that, that people lean on with the the late date
Ryan: The biggest thing is the external evidence, but particularly Irenaeus,
and there are other early writers that seem to lean towards a later date., And then you can kind of imagine like, why Babylon and Rome would be associated with one another, as opposed to shockingly hearing Jerusalem described as Babylon,
right?
And, and that
kind of a connection. So, and, And and there are some other things that I, I've found, compelling.
Bryan: you made a statement though earlier that this is, like, if the, the late date is so compelling for you, once you've seen that the early date, like, connects a lot of things together for you and helps you understand things in a deeper way, like that seems like that's gonna be the bulk of this conversation. So let's get into that. Let, Let's talk about what the, what the early date unlocks for you and why you've kind of moved your, your understanding of it to that instead of the late date.
Early Date Evidence
Ryan: Well, I'll just give like,, four different things that I made a note of here.
Great City Clue
Ryan: The first is the great city. Revelation 11, verse8
Bryan: says, "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."
Ryan: so then,, you wanna read chapter seventeen verse eighteen. Let's read both of these and just notice them next to each
Bryan: Yeah, so 17 verse 18 says, and the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth."
Ryan: So in 17, verse 18, this woman who's described as the great city is the harlot is what she's described as, and she is riding on this beast, which we know pretty clearly to be Rome. Rome is the city on seven hills and this beast is described as that, as, you know, the seven heads represent seven hills. And so this woman is riding on Rome, but she's called the great city.
Bryan: Right
Ryan: back in chapter 11, whenever this city was
first introduced, the great city, it is where their Lord was crucified.
Well, where was, where was Jesus crucified? Was it in Rome? It was in Jerusalem.
Bryan: was by Rome,
but not in Rome, yes?
Ryan: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So this seems to be, to me, a pretty compelling
piece of the puzzle.
Jesus Prophecy Links
Ryan: And I'll just leave that at that and, and maybe we can move to the next one, which is to just look at the connection between what Jesus says and the prophetic story that's playing out in the book of Revelation.
And so if you look at these different prophecies, like verse 35 of Matthew 23, "So that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar, truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." And then Jesus is not happy about it, of course. He loves Jerusalem.
In that next section, he mourns it. But then everybody looks around and says, "Wow, these buildings are so amazing. Look at the temple." And Jesus says, "It's all coming down." And then he gives an answer to their question about when these things will be and describes the wars and rumors of wars and all the difficult things that are, are gonna come about. And we see a lot of similar language that plays out in the book of Revelation. And, And so I just find that connection between Jesus' prophecies and the book of Revelation really compelling. We know that, historically, the Christians fled to Pella whenever they saw some of these things come about.
They left Jerusalem. They got out,
Bryan: he told them to do.
Ryan: which is what he told them to do. And, And so, that connects well with this prophecy.
Bryan: Okay, so the, the connection between Matthew 23, 24 and what Jesus was saying there to what the events we believe happened in Revelation kind of lead us to think this is talking more about the destruction of Jerusalem and maybe not as much about a, an event that happened later., What,, I mean, specifically when we think about Jerusalem and the temple and we're sort of centering in around, you know, the great city like you talked about and what Jesus was talking about, you know, destroying the temple and, and o- obviously all of that language from Matthew 23, is there more to that that we need to unpack here?
'Cause that seems pretty compelling so far.
Temple Measurement Puzzle
Ryan: Well, the temple story is so important in the book of Revelation and the Jerusalem story. Anybody would acknowledge the New Jerusalem is important. Well, what is that building to? What is that contrast between the bride and, I would say, the, a contrast between the bride and the harlot that is back there in chapter 17 that we were talking about? And the bride is the New Jerusalem. Well, who is the harlot?
The Bible doesn't call it the Old Jerusalem. But if you look in context, it seems to be playing out that way. And the temple is so important throughout. And there's one particular passage that I find notable in in chapter 11, where he's told to go and measure the temple of Go- God and the altar of those who worship there. He says, don't measure the court outside the temple, leave that out. And it's just strange that there's no mention of the fact that the temple has been destroyed. There's no allusion to it.
What is-- Even if this temple is figurative, it's strange the way this plays out. It's clearlythere's no reference anywhere to the temple falling. No suggestion about it except what is, I believe, what is describing what's, what's coming
Bryan: could imagine that if this was something that, you know, they were looking back on, it's like, yeah,, this would be a perfect opportunity for John to say, "Oh yeah, by the way, the temple is destroyed or, you know, something like that. You'd wanna think that he would talk about that if that if he were looking back on it. But it seems that he's saying like, oh yeah, this is my job now.
I'm gonna go rise, measure the temple of God and, you know, he says, says nothing about it n- not being there or, you know, being destroyed or in disarray or whatever. So,
Ryan: Yeah, because that's clearly part of the story of what God is doing. I mean,that, you know, 70 AD, whenever the temple falls, it's,, it's part of God, God's work that he's doing.
A
Soon And Near Language
Ryan: nd you know, that points to one more thing, which is that the language constantly through the book, there's this, like, drumbeat of "soon" and "very soon," you know, "soon" and "near." The two words that if you were trying to dis-- to say, "This is about to happen. You guys, be ready. It's about to happen." We know he's writing to those seven churches of Asia. We know he's writing for them to find comfort in the midst of persecution, in the midst of difficulty. And what he says right at the beginning of the book, right at the end of the book, and all the way through, is that this is about to happen.
So just be ready for it. And the idea that this, whether you view this as, you know, 400 years later, or 2,000 years later, Like, What does it mean if it's just soon? And you know, people have been talking about this kind of thing for a long time. Well, maybe the, the apostles, the prophets, don't even know when it's gonna be, and they're just saying, or to God, it's a, a thousand years. A day is as a
Bryan: Ah, yes.
Ryan: you know, he's not talking about a theological point about God here. He's saying to people he wants to communicate with, "Hey, be ready.
It's coming soon." So that's a compelling piece, and you know, there's other things we could talk about. There's external evidences for this view. There's you know, the s- the storyline of Nero as the sixth king, I think, is, would be a fifth point I would bring up, But that gives you at least a, an introductory look at a few things I find pretty
compelling when I look at the earlier date.
What's your take on it as one who's just hearing all of this?
Bryan: Well, I mean, I, I, I have seen some of
these arguments before, and it seems to me to make sense that this is talking about an event that's coming up soon, especially with that language, also the temple imagery, that makes sense., You know, there are, there have been a lot of, I- it's not to say that there wasn't persecution that happened, you know, post the destruction of the temple and it's not to even say that like the lessons here can't be applied to later events that happened, because they absolutely can.
And we can even still, you know, use some of these lessons for ourself today. Not that any of these things are, are prophetically being, you know,, fulfilled today, but definitely, you know, we can, we can lean on the the encouragement that God is victorious over, over evil here., But absolutely, like I think, you know, the, the simplest possible answer tends to be the one that I would generally gravitate towards. But I guess the, you know, aside from all of it, like if you're saying, well, here's some compelling reasons why it might be the earlier date, the, the question still remains like, like, why does that change anything?
Why does that matter?, You know, a- and I I feel like you have a very compelling reason for why that matters to you, because it unlocks a lot of this story. What is it what is it unlocking in the Bible that helps you to see something c- more clearly than if it were talking about the later date,
Why Early Date Helps
Ryan: Yeah, to me, it gives a completion to a a lot of the storylines that were built up. I mean, so much of the Old Testament is about a particular covenant people of ethnic Israel, for them to be a people who are a light, who turn to the Messiah, who follow him and bring in the whole world as a blessing.
And what keeps happening with the institutions of the Jews, from the temple to the rulers their persecution of Christianity throughout the book of Acts. It's primarily Jews chasing them around and, and persecuting Christians. And so that becomes a, a last call for judgment that echoes all of the judgments we've seen, you know, like what Ezekiel was talking about, like what Isaiah, you know, what, what these different prophets throughout time and completes one arc of the story with that people and that old covenant at 70 AD, a final kind of ending to that where now those who are faithful among the Jews to the Messiah and all the world who turns to Jesus become true Israel, grafted in, and we now have a a bride that is is fit for Jesus.
And that's what the story was always pointing to. It just it clicks with so much of what we see in the Old Testament, and then it also gives historic testimony. Like We look all, at all these old prophecies in the Old Testament and often say, "Wow, this was absolutely clearly fulfilled here and it was clearly fulfilled there," and and it's, it's a, it's a faith builder to see how it matches up. Well, for me, whenever you look at this, it is just such a, clear fulfillment if you take this early date that it becomes both in the historic picture of that storyline of what God is doing and then in the biblical storyline, they both have a, a very satisfying completion
Bryan: it would be difficult just to kind of walk away with like a loose end in the book of Revelation and it's kind of just leaving you with more questions than it answered., So seeing your, your reasoning there, I think makes a lot of sense to me. I, I find a lot of the connection between what Jesus talked about, And then you get to Revelation and you see, ah, yes, that's what's going on. And that's, that's where h- that, that's where this story is kind of finding its conclusion. So I, I think I lean towards the earlier date, although I don't, again, know that I've really thought much about the later date,, you know, compared to that. So this has been helpful, I think,, just thinking through some of these things.
Ryan: Yeah, and, you know, just the fact that it clicks into place,, I don't think should be enough if the, if the evidence was overwhelming, otherwise, but I think there are answers to the other side of the, the evidences and I, and I'm still open. They're very smart people that I really respect who take the other view.
Big Picture Hope
Ryan: Um, What we don't wanna miss is the big picture of what is happening in Revelation, which is that Jesus is working out a victory that we can all count on today, that he, we will overcome with the lamb if we hold faithfully to him. And there is a beautiful vision ahead of where he is., He's taking history and it's, it's gonna conclude in a,, in, in the garden, basically in a new
heavens and a new earth.
That is a, a, a perfect reunion with our King.
Well,, come Lord Jesus as the end of,, end of Revelation
Bryan: talks about.
Wrap Up And Next Episode
Bryan: Uh, Yes, we've stretched the limits here of our mini episode, but, thanks everyone for tuning in. On our next episode, we're gonna talk in our, final conversation in our Bible Geek-tober, all about robots., Again, we've got- we're gonna get into a discussion on AI as we wrap up our, conversations for Geek-tober.
Thanks everyone for tuning in. And, until next ep- episode, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
Ryan: Shalom.