Mini: The Chosen S2E6
270 | “The Right Thing”
Enjoy Season 2, Episode 6 of the Chosen
Swap out the HR cardigans for your favorite professorial Letterman sweater (or just stay in your sweatpants) — we're diving into some heavy theology! In this installment of the Winter Watch Party, we're breaking down The Chosen Season 2, Episode 6, where two massive themes collide head-on: God's law and God's grace. Ryan puts Bryan in the "Hot Seat" to untangle a messy question about ethics: what's the difference between just doing whatever feels right in the moment and actually discerning God's will? We're talking King David eating the forbidden showbread, Jesus healing on the Sabbath, and the ancient rabbinic throwdown between the schools of Shammai and Hillel. (Yep, we went full Bible Geek on this one!) But it's not all high-level debates. We also get real about Mary Magdalene’s emotional return to the camp and tackle a tough "Reach Out" question: Why is grace so hard to accept? Spoiler alert: learning to dish out a little more grace to the people around us might just be the secret to finally accepting it for ourselves.
Takeaways
The Big Idea: Following Jesus means learning how to discern rightly — and learning how to live forgiven when we fall.
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Introduction and Episode Overview
Bryan: can I put the right thing in quotation marks,
Ryan: Yeah, it is in quotation in my question here,
Bryan: Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to the Bible Geeks podcast. I'm Bryan Schiele,
Ryan: I'm Ryan Joy.
Bryan: and today on the show, we are taking on The Chosen episode that puts two big themes right next to each other. How Jesus treats failure with grace and how he treats God's law with wisdom and authority.
Ryan: So our conversation about season two, episode six, revolves around two big questions, one about the law and one about grace. So we'll start with a hot seat question about ethics, and then we'll end with a reach-out question about why grace can be so hard to receive.
Flashback and Key Events
Ryan: Okay, so a lot happens in this one, starting with a flashback to the high priest in the time of David, another one of those Old Testament flashbacks. And then it ends with Jesus citing that story after healing a man on the Sabbath. And of course, in between, as we talked about last time, Peter and Matthew go and find Mary Magdalene after she relapses.
And so, you know, they bring her back and there's this story of grace. So it's packed, kind of heavy, theologically weighty and emotionally weighty and a lot to talk about.
Vibe Check and Episode Rating
Ryan: So where does this rank? Let's do our vibe check here. Where does this rank in the pantheon of chosen episodes? What's your rating? One to five loaves and fishes.
Bryan: I don't know. I'm gonna have to probably give this one... It's difficult, right? This one's a... this one's a rough one for me in a little... a few ways, but I'd say probably... I'd say 3 and a half. I- I- I'm adopting your half... half fishes,
Ryan: Okay, I like it. You need it. You need it. I don't...
Bryan: How 'bout
Ryan: actually,
I do like this one. I like the... there's just, there's a lot here. I mean, it's, there's almost too much here. That would be my one complaint is it's like three episodes packed into one. But I really like the discussion of these theologically complex issues. There's the politics of Shammai and the son of Hillel, which I actually researched this and Shimon, most likely this was the son of Hillel.
And his son is Gamaliel. It taught Paul his ethics and they all are continuing the Hillel theological approach to the law to some degree. There's a little bit of questions about it, but most people who study that think that. So anyway, I think there's just like all of these different ideas and Jesus working through the weighty matters and how to deal with Sabbath law and all the traditions that the rabbis have pulled together.
And then these moments with Mary. I liked it. I'm going to give it a four and a half.
Bryan: Ooh! Wow, that's high praise. Okay.
Ryan: yeah, definitely.
Bryan: I- I can definitely see why it scratches a particular itch for you. Um,
Ryan: yeah, it's very me kind of
Bryan: anytime you get to talk about the word "theologically rich" in connection with an episode of television, pretty sure you're gonna be up there. I- that
Ryan: We're in Bible Geeks heaven here. So
Bryan: laughs
Discussion on Law and Grace
Ryan: with that, I want to take us to two different topics. We're going to talk about law. We're going to talk about like how we work through wisely applying, figuring out what is God's will. And then we're going to get into talking about grace. So it's a law and grace.
Speaking of Paul, a law and grace episode. I, by the way, last episode you brought up cardigans. I put my cardigan on here for not the HR guy, but like the ethics, theologically
Bryan: Yep.
Ryan: rich, you know, professorial kind of approach here. Although this looks more like a Letterman sweater or something. But anyway,
Bryan: Alright.
Hot Seat: Ethics and Situational Discernment
Ryan: we're going to get into the hot seat, Bryan.
I'm going to put both of us on the hot seat with a question about ethics. And it comes from these complicated issues of going back to David and a Himalaya and David eating the show bread whenever, according to the regulations that would have only been for the priest. Some of the questions about, you know, can you pull, can you heal on the Sabbath?
Can you pull your sheep or your goat out of the ditch on the Sabbath as Jesus brings up? So the hot seat question for you is, what's the difference between situational ethics as the world might define it and faithful discernment of God's will? Does the question make sense?
Bryan: So the difference between situational ethics, like, as in, the world's definition of that, the way that they view that, and faithful discernment. So you're- you're really getting into, like, how to be wise versus how to just change what you do on a whim, depending on what's going on around you. Um, yeah, I- I- I feel like at the core, it has to go back to the two great commandments, that if we love God with all of our heart and soul and strength and mind, if that is, like, if that's at the core of who we are, then that will just pour out into the choices that we make and- and what we decide to do.
And then, of course, all the law and the prophets hang on another command, which is to love your neighbor as yourself. And so, in these two laws, in these two commandments, really is, like, the core of what we should be on the inside. And then these decisions we make, you know, whether I'm gonna help somebody or whether I'm gonna, um, you know, follow this tradition or listen to this person's direction in this matter or whatever it is, like, I think it all gets filtered through those two laws.
And so, for me, the difference between situa- situational ethics, the way the world describes it, there's no, like, core why behind it, or there's no, like, driving force, um, that actually underpins it all. And maybe that's a- a cop-out answer, but, like, I feel like allowing love to be at the core of what we do and allowing, you know, God's will to be at the core of what we do will really change- change the game here for- for the way that we- for the way that we live.
Ryan: Well, I mean, you started with the right foundation. I think that I'm glad you went to the two great commandments, which already in calling them the greatest
Bryan: [laughs]
Ryan: says there is a hierarchy to the commandments of God. And I think one of the things we want to distinguish, though, is love doesn't like dismiss the other commandments of God.
It doesn't let it all go. And also, we don't get to define what love is. God defines love for us. There is a stable, like clear definition of love, most clearly seen in Jesus and what he did. And then we order everything according to what Jesus called the way to your matters, like love, like faithfulness, like mercy.
You know, I learn what it means. I desire mercy and not sacrifice, Jesus says in this episode and in Matthew from quoting Hosea 6. And it's very different than like the judges 21 idea, everyone did what was right in their own eyes. You know, you just look at what the situation is, that moral relativism, that
situation ethics that just dismisses everything and says, you just figure out without any binding norms from God what seems right to you in a particular situation. And that's how you do it. That is not what Jesus is doing, but rather taking those two great commandments you brought us to and putting underneath that all the other things that God has told us, all these principles and wisely applying them according to the situation.
I think that's a difference I would make is like the law doesn't change based on the situation. The application needs to take the situation into mind, and that's a big difference, I
Bryan: and- and it's easy when we're talking about things that are always good or- you know, we- we often face the decision of, like, how to- how to be wise or discerning when it comes to choosing two good things side by side. That's a difficulty.
That's a challenge. But when you have one person or- or a group of people here, especially with Jesus and, like, you know, picking the heads of grain or- or all the things that Jesus was accused of- of doing, um, you know, not having his disciples ceremonially- ceremonially washing their hands or whatever it was, when you have these moments where it's, like, somebody telling you that you're in sin or that you're doing something wrong, that's where it gets a little bit dicey for me.
because you could see a- you could see a case for why they're saying what they're saying. The Sabbath was important, and, you know, they're holding up the Sabbath as, like, this is important to us. We- we think that you should not be doing these particular kinds of things. And, like, then what is their motivation for wanting to- to hold up the Sabbath and telling them that everyone else is breaking the Sabbath?
It's not because that they're genuinely concerned about people's well-being or they're genuinely concerned about what God wants for people and- and- and any of that. I think they're really just out there trying to be the police and, you know, lift themselves up and puff themselves up. And, again, like, the motive there becomes really obvious.
It's, like, on clear display. These people have- have it out for Jesus, and they're looking for any excuse to, quote-unquote, use God's words against, well, the Son of God, which isn't gonna work. Sorry.
Ryan: And Jesus often sees right through people's hearts. You brought up motive matters, the distinction between Jesus distinguishes between the traditions of men and God, you know, your hearts are far from me as you lift up the traditions of men. a place for tradition.
Tradition is not unimportant completely, but it can't be confused with God's law. And then
God's character is what should determine our interpretation of these laws and our discernment between what is right and wrong in any given situation. You know, Hebrews talks about that by practice we will learn to distinguish, to discern between, you know, good and evil, between what's right and wrong in these complicated, difficult situations where we don't always know.
And that's my next question is just to kind of take it home a little bit. Have you ever been in a situation where doing the right thing felt complicated rather than clear?
Bryan: boy. Well, can- can I just, like, can I put the right thing in quotation marks,
Ryan: Yeah, it is in quotation in my question here,
Bryan: so, I feel like that's the biggest challenge is- is I'm gonna do a thing, but what I'm trying to figure out myself is, like, is this the right thing? Not is this, like, is this the morally correct thing, necessarily, but- but often with discernment and, you know, acting with wisdom, like, is this the correct thing to do in this moment?
And I am, like, a textbook overthinker, so, you know, I'm gonna be, like, I'm gonna weigh it all out. I wanna analyze it. I wanna think about what's going on. So, really, the question for me should be, has there ever not been a time where doing the right thing, you know, felt complicated rather than clear? 'Cause I- I feel like I'm- I'm always wrestling with, is this correct?
Is this right? Should I be doing this, or should I be doing something else right now? And as somebody who's easily distracted, as somebody who is, like, you know, definitely an overanalyzer, it's tough to- to wrestle with some situations. And I could, you know, I have been on both sides, just- just to kind of go back.
Like, if I- if I just put myself in, like, David's shoes when he was there with the showbred and thinking about what he should have done versus what he shouldn't have done, you know, I've been in both camps of, like, "Bad call, David. Bad call." And then I've been in the camp of, like, "Good call, David. Good call."
And it's- I wrestle with it, too, in so many of these ways. And- and again, you know, the mercy that we're talking about here, I hope God is showing us mercy when we thoughtfully and intentionally make these decisions that we wrestle with, you know? And I think that's one of the big reasons why when we show mercy, God promises He will show us mercy.
That- that's such a- a heartwarming thought to know, "Boy, if- if my- if mercy is my driving force, even if I make bad calls, God- God will still be merciful to me."
Ryan: me say the quote, I don't always know how to please you, but I think that I want to please you pleases you. And, you know, at some point we're just trying, we're seeking. And as long as we have our heart in the right orientation to want God's will, and we're trying to learn it and as we learn the right thing, we align our lives with it.
As we fail to get that, we repent and keep coming back to that. You know, at some point we just fall on God's mercy and pray for him to love us and let his grace extend beyond our knowledge of how to apply everything. And we just keep growing in that.
Bryan: I feel like maybe you were asking me to come up with a- a concrete scenario, and I couldn't really. I sort of punted back to David, like, "Are you thinking of anything in your own life that's like, 'Oh, yeah, that's- that- that's where I really struggled to do the right thing.'" Yeah. And made it- made it more complicated than it needed to be.
Ryan: Well, I think you're right that there are, I don't know that I would say that it's like all the time, but there are a lot of moments through the years
I guess I've gone from the Shammai school to the Hillel school, or
you know, understanding kind of the wisdom from above at the end of James 3, where there's
Bryan: Mm.
Ryan: more thoughtfulness and more, it's not a soft or pliable approach to God's law or God's will, but it's recognizing how I handle it is often a first principle, a first level issue, the issue itself, but how I talk about it with somebody, how I work through it, how I treat the person. And, you know, those kinds of things become more at the center of the whole thing, rather than the whole thing being about whatever issue that I am concerned about, if that makes sense.
I'm still speaking abstractly because there's just too many. I don't have one in my head, but there was like this middle period when I was in that transition where I always felt pulled between prioritizing the person and the approach and being patient with someone versus how do I do that and still take a stand for truth or take a stand for, no, this is absolutely right and wrong, and it's a right versus right dilemma that with wisdom you learn to hold on to both, I think.
Bryan: Yeah. Ah, man. I- I think you said something, and we've said it on, uh, past episodes in- in last season, but, "Boy, isn't it complicated to make the right decision?" [Laughter] "Isn't it complicated to come to, you know, the- the correct interpretation or handle things in the right way?" And- and, you know, this is a complicated episode, uh, of The Chosen, and I- you know, we're working through some complicated things ourselves, so, "Boy, let's just lean into that a little bit.
Isn't this- isn't this complicated?" [Laughter]
Ryan: is complicated, and why is it complicated to receive grace?
Challenges of Receiving Grace
Ryan: Like, this is our reach-out question. I don't know if we want to play our little stinger for that.
Bryan: Let's do it.
Ryan: Okay, so, Bryan, I mean, I have some specific questions I can ask within this, but basically my question is, thinking about Mary and that moment where she's like, "I just feel so ashamed," why is it that grace is so hard to receive? And maybe especially when we're early in our discipleship, do you have a simple answer to
Bryan: [Laughter] I feel like- it is- I feel like, for me, it's often so hard to forgive myself. The idea that- that I can let something go, or that I can forget or move past something. And because I know how difficult that is for me to do to myself or for myself, it- it is hard for me to think about the grace of God, who knows everything, sees everything, is right there, you know, in my presence, being able to do- analyze what I'm doing.
It's so hard for me to- to imagine a God who would forget those things by choice. And- and- and to forgive those things, and there's no reason why he should. There's- of course, that's the- the nature of grace. I'm not earning that or- or, you know, deserving of his forgiveness. But of course, like, if I- I- I think for me, it's that basis in, like, I know how I am, so to think that somebody else or God himself could be different than that is such a stretch for me.
It's also why when somebody I know who extends me forgiveness, why it's hard to- to deal with that as well, because I know how I am. And so I- I constantly have my- myself kind of sitting on my shoulder, maybe, telling me how I am and coloring my view. I don't know, what- what about you?
Ryan: Well, that's really interesting, the judgment that we bring, "Judge not lest you be judged," with the mercy you bring to others, that mercy will be brought to you by the Lord,
Bryan: Right,
Ryan: and that becomes part of our inner monologue, dialogue, whatever, of how we are processing our own things. If we're just living in constant condemnation of everyone around us, why would we think that God would that God who actually sees perfectly the standard and lives perfectly the standard would be willing to be gracious to us?
That's just an insight that I've had through the years on, often, I'm being hardest on myself whenever I'm holding on to something that I'm really frustrated and disappointed in other people, and then I just, it starts reflecting and bouncing back to myself. But it goes back to this thing we just talked about, the importance that we recognize the importance of the, it's not just like rules and regulations, this is good and evil, and we recognize whenever we do the wrong thing and it matters, and we know it matters, and we know we were hurtful or we were, you know, shameful or whatever it was, we, you know, we want control and grace requires dependence.
We want, you know, to think of ourselves as a person who is this good person, and grace requires us to see ourselves as needing a gift from God. We want to progress, and grace acknowledges, like Mary, that we have regressed and we've moved backwards,
Bryan: That's
helpful. just to see that grace is coming to us and completely requiring us to reframe our natural way of thinking, right? That, you know, in- in our pride, we need to be humbled, and- and in our lack of- or our need for control, we need to let go of that control and depend on him. And I- that- that's a helpful way of thinking about that.
I guess that is sort of what I was saying, I guess, like, you know, that my- my standards, the way I hold things, is- is counter to the way God does. And, you know, just squaring that circle for me is- can be a difficult thing, you know, as- as we're constantly being renewed in our minds to think differently.
Ryan: Well, before we wrap this up, let me just ask you this, and I'll ask it a couple different ways.
Living in Grace and Forgiveness
Ryan: what do you think actually helps someone move from just being forgiven, like whenever Jesus says, "I forgive you," to Mary, and to her actually receiving restoration, or to us actually learning to live in grace, learning to live forgiven? You know, how do we learn to live forgiven? Is there anybody who's helped you with this?
Is there something that has helped you to live not in this constant fear or guilt, but just accepting and embracing the grace and love and mercy of God, even in our
Bryan: Yeah, I- I feel like that's one of the great benefits of this being, you know, the chosen as a plural. Like, you know, that this is- that there are multiple people who are all wrestling with this together. You know, we see this in these episodes, but, you know, within the Church, within our- our smaller communities, like, I feel- I feel so much like, if I- if I, like, hyperfixate and narrow in on my issues all the time, I can just spiral, and it becomes, you know, some- some issue just can become, like, really big and- and take up all of my cycles and thoughts.
I feel like, though, when- when I start seeing the way that Jesus' forgiveness and mercy is reflected in the lives of other people around me, towards me, or towards others, then I start to see, like, I play a part in that too, that I can then pay it forward, and that opportunity that we have to- to act on behalf of other people.
I think it's the reason why it's the second greatest command, right? Like, it's the reason why we have this- this love, not just for God and for ourselves, but also for other people, because I think that's how we learn to be forgiven, by also forgiving others. You know, when we demonstrate that to others, when we demonstrate mercy to others, when we give people grace, and we don't jump to conclusions about them, or talk about them behind their back, or we give them, you know, the benefit of the doubt, or whatever it is, when we demonstrate love for other people, that- I think it helps us to see, you know, when people do that for us, that- that this is a- I don't know, that it works, I guess, in a- in a way.
Like, this is effective, and so I don't have to be so focused on, you know, all the things I've done wrong, but I can move forward into how can I express my appreciation for what Jesus did for me into the lives of other
Ryan: mm. That's such a great place to end here. It brings everything together. You're talking about really reflecting God's character, which is how we talked about really making these ethical choices. The law of God and the things that God has revealed are about teaching us who He is so that we can reflect that.
And, you know, if we can learn to love freely, to forgive freely, to graciously reflect, acknowledging the cost, the cost to God, the cost to us of being gracious and generous and forgiving. But if we can yield to God's will and God's character and His way, let go of our gripping of attachment to, you know, "I'm right," and, you know, "This was wrong," and, you know, learn to give grace to others, learn to give love to others, learn to lose ourselves in the goodness of God and try to reflect that.
We're going to find that we can receive it much more easily, and then it's just like this overflow. So I think that's a great place to end.
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
Ryan: Thank you for engaging these challenging questions with me, Bryan.
Bryan: Yeah, well, I did feel like I was on the hot seat in this conversation, so thank you for putting me there. It was great. This has been episode six of The Chosen that we're doing here from season two in our winter watch party.
On the next episode, we will be into episode seven. We're looking forward to a discussion about the show called The Reckoning there in that episode, and we'll be into that one on the next one. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. You can find show notes where you always find them. Go to our website, review us on iTunes or Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever it is.
We'd appreciate that. And until the next conversation, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
Ryan: Shalom.