Rescuing Romans 7
282 | “Retrain My Brain”
Find Hope in the Struggle
Ever feel like you’re stuck in a loop of doing the very things you hate? This week, we’re joined by our friend Allen Greeley to tackle what some call the “Mount Everest of Pauline issues”: Romans 7. From a debate that started on a ski lift to a deep dive into the “already, not yet” of our adoption as sons, we’re looking at how to navigate the very real struggle with sin without losing our hope in Christ. Whether you see Paul as a struggling Christian or a Jew under the law, one thing is clear: chapter 7 only makes sense when you flip the page to the "no condemnation" victory of chapter 8.
Takeaways
The Big Idea: Christians don’t lead a life of sinless perfection, but of Spirit-led hope, power, and grace amid the struggle.
This Week's Challenge: Read Romans 7 and 8 back-to-back this week, noting how every "wretched" moment in chapter seven finds its resolution in the "no condemnation" of chapter eight.
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Welcome and Romans 7 Debate
Allen: he found me in a coffee shop and I had my Bible open there on my phone.
And I was just, he's like, hey, what's going on? And I think I was like in a trance. I was like just trying to retrain my brain.
Bryan: Well, hello, everyone. And welcome to the Bible Geeks podcast. I'm Bryan Schiele.
Ryan: Ryan Joy.
Bryan: And thanks so much, everyone, for tuning in. You know, Romans 7 has really sparked an honest and important debate about our life in Christ.
Is Paul describing the normal Christian life, life under the law, or something in between?
Ryan: So in this episode we bring in our dear friend Allen Greeley for a conversation that started on a ski lift and has kept growing. So we'll explore the major ways to understand Romans 7 and even beyond that chapter. How do we find assurance? Oh, I made
The struggles
Bryan: The two views that we're talking about today can lead some people to some really unhelpful and wrong views about the Christian life. So today, we want to rescue it from those two extremes and show that with either view, Paul's teaching in Romans on our life in Christ is full of hope in the midst of all of our struggle. So after our seven sermon Summer Surfing Spectacular, which by the way I can still say, uh, all these many months later, uh, having Allen on the show with us a whole ton of times, um, and I guess Ryan and I having recorded in the pondering studio there in Plainfield not too long ago, I don't feel like I should have to introduce Allen, but, uh, welcome to the show, Allen Greely, uh, host
of the Plainfield Ponderings
Allen: Thank you guys.
Yeah, so awesome to be here. Thank you guys for inviting me. This is, I love talking Bible with you guys.
Ski Lift Origins
Bryan: Yeah, so there was this whole moment, uh, not too long ago when I was doing the meeting that we talked about a couple episodes ago actually, uh, there in Plainfield, and Ryan drove down and we were all together and hanging out, and I had on my slide a slide talking about the law, and I had referenced at the bottom of the slide Romans 7, and that night after the sermon, we basically started this whole conversation, uh, that you guys had already been a part of at apparently a ski trip that I missed out on, so, like, catch me up to speed about why this whole conversation about Romans 7 was like in the air prior to that
Allen: Well, nothing says talking theology like a ski lift, so it's just so natural. I mean, that's why I love talking with you guys so often because it's so easy to get into Bible topics no matter where we are. But I think the way it came up was we were talking about Ryan's class on grace that he's been teaching up in Fort Wayne, where he had been teaching. and we were just talking about, you know, if we have security as believers through God's grace, like how much does that extend? When do we lose that? When does sin and addiction to sin and a life of sin become too much? And so we were talking about just the natural struggle that we all have. And so Romans 7 came up and I was just saying, just kind of casually, you know, like we're all experiencing what Paul was experiencing in Romans 7.
And Ryan just kind of blew my mind. He was like, well, you know, I don't disagree with you, but I'm not sure that's what Romans 7 is talking about. And I was like, wait, what? And so he ended up sending me some podcasts and some articles that really, really stretched my mind. I ended up not skiing that day later in the afternoon and he found me in a coffee shop and I had my Bible open there on my phone.
And I was just, he's like, hey, what's going on? And I think I was like in a trance. I was like just trying to retrain my brain. And so the grace class was how it got brought up. And then just he stretched my mind about what it could mean. And ever since then, we've had, I don't know, maybe a dozen conversations about it.
So that's how it all started. And here we are
Bryan: it is interesting that Ryan has that, uh, capability, that's, that's kind of his jam, is like, just what you thought you knew, you're like, "Wait a second, hold on!" He does that to me all the time, so,
Avoiding Two Extremes
Ryan: and you think that when you have these conversations, you're going to get firmer in your point, but I am unsettled, not fully convinced of either view here, but I think we can make the case, I think, for both of these views, and talk about maybe more importantly, where we are both passionate about these wrong turns that this passage can take, right?
That if we, I don't even think you have to have wrong teaching in order for Christians to arrive at these two wrong views, that we just like sort of gravitate towards, like we get this idea that, oh, they're saying that this isn't, Romans 7 isn't about my struggle with sin, and so I guess with their talking about Romans 8, Christians must not struggle with sin anymore, which means there's something wrong with me, which means that, you know, that I am hopelessly lost, or on the other side, Christians are helplessly overcome by sin, and this sounds like me, and I guess that's just how Christian life is supposed to be, and I will just kind of live in my being overwhelmed and a slave to sin, and we're not always meant to feel that way; we want to keep reading to Romans 8.
So that's at the heart of this discussion, is there is on one level a biblical interpretation conversation about the text of Romans 7, and then at the other level, a theological discussion of what Paul is doing in Romans 5-8 and in the rest of the Bible to understand what is the Christian life, what's our relation to grace, sin, and to how we walk in the
Bryan: heard somebody describe this once as the, uh, Mount Everest of Pauline issues, like, if you're thinking about Paul, this may be one of the top ones, and, you know, I, I appreciate that we're not necessarily gonna come into this, uh, asserting a dominant position that, like, we know what Romans 7 is specifically talking about, but I do think it's helpful to make sure that we, we say what this passage does not lead us to, you know, understand or believe, that, like, as if, like, no Christians ever struggle with sin.
Okay, well, that's not what Paul's saying here, and he's not saying, "Well, we're whole, we're wholly given to sin, and we just, you know, can't help it, and there's nothing we can do, we're just overcome and overrun by sin, so let's just throw up our hands and give it all up." That's also not the conclusion we want to get to here, so, if you haven't read Romans 7,
We're actually going to read them together, so you can follow along with us, but, like, just really center in on what these verses are talking about, um, and hopefully this conversation will be helpful for you.
Reading Romans 7
Bryan: I don't know, Allen, do you want to throw in, uh, a few verses here from Romans 7?
Allen: Yeah, absolutely.
here we go. " Did that which is good then bring death to me? By no means. It was sin producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and that through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions, for I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now, if I do not what I want, I agree with the law that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me that is in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now, if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within
Bryan: So, then he wraps up this chapter by saying, "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Who Is the I
Bryan: So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." this is the passage that we're really focused on here, and Paul has gone into this first-person narrative as he begins to speak not of "we" or "us," but now of "I."
And so I think this has partially been one of the big reasons why this is confusing for people. Like, who do you think Ryan is the "I" that he's talking about here?
Under Law View
Ryan: Well, I think that it makes a lot of sense to see it in the flow of the larger argument and to view it not as Paul is right now, viewing himself as a Christian, as we get to Romans 8, and we see his life in the power of the Spirit, and he follows the Lord, and we see back in Romans 6 he is not a slave to sin, he is no longer under that slavery.
So to view it instead here as him describing the human experience under the law, Romans 6 being about death to sin in a Christian's life, and Romans 7 being about death to the law, he starts out at the beginning in the first few verses giving this illustration about marriage and how when somebody dies, then that covenant is broken, that relationship is broken, and he starts to go into this relationship with the law that we all have experienced at times, and I'm not saying that a Christian might never feel this way, but that this is not our normative reality, that rather Paul is maybe relating to what a Jew especially under the law might be experiencing and what he pre-conversion might have been experiencing under the law, and then we get to "wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death?"
like he doesn't even know the name of the person who's going to save him, and lands on who it is, and then we go into Romans 8, this beautiful picture of what is normative in the Christian life, not that we never sin, not that there's no struggle, but that there is this victory, hope, and this confidence, and this ongoing growth of an experience
life rather than slavishness, sin, as he starts to talk about in dwelling in no good.
Bryan: Yeah.
Ryan: That's where I lean,
Present Christian View
Bryan: Allen, you were, like, I guess starting this conversation talking about how you took a different view of this verse. And so when you're thinking about the "I" here, at least originally before the coffee shop moment of, like, zoning out, like, what were you thinking here that Paul was really saying?
Allen: That he was talking about himself currently. And I think I lean to that still now. It's just so, it's so, the first person language is so in your face. And the reason why it's possible that he's not talking about himself currently is, some of the podcasts that Ryan had shared, they brought out that it could be a rhetorical device that he's using. So rhetorically, this was a thing in the Greek language to speak about someone that's not yourself, but you're using first person language. So that's very possible. thing that still makes me think that he's talking about himself is that when he does use rhetorical devices, like what he did in 2 Corinthians, for example, when he's talking about, "I know a man who was caught up into the third heaven," remember that passage?
And he does make it clear in that passage, unequivocally, that he's talking about himself. But this one, he doesn't. It's still unclear. So the first person language just had me thinking for sure, he had to have been talking about himself in Christ and still struggling with sin. So I lean towards that still now.
that was just the plainness of the first person language and all of the present tense verbs was why I thought he was talking about
Bryan: Yeah, and I, at the time when you guys brought that up, I was, like, scratching my head, because I'd not even really thought through this before. And so this was a sort of a great opportunity for me to kind of dig into it. And over the last, I don't know, since we were all together and I heard you guys talking about Romans 7, I started digging into it a little bit more.
Middle Approach and Spirit Contrast
Bryan: And I do find it interesting, like, I think this is Paul. I think he is speaking of his own experience. Like, this is just the way I'm viewing this, that I think it is him, but that it's him on the other side of the cross, knowing Christ, having understood what it was to be redeemed by Christ, to live in the Spirit, but, like, looking back at his own life and almost speaking in character of him as somebody under the law.
I kind of view it from that perspective, because, like, for one thing here, he does start off this whole chapter in chapter 7 by talking about, you know, I'm speaking to those who know the law. But obviously, clearly here, he's talking about the law. And, you know, he's talking to those who have died to the law.
He says in verse 4, "You also who have died to the law through the body of Christ." That's the message that he's giving to these people. But there is no mention of the Spirit here in chapter 7. Nothing here is talking about the Spirit's working or what the Spirit is doing in Paul or in this person that he's putting on.
And it's all to compare and contrast, I think, with chapter 8, when it's all about the Spirit. It's like his now revelation of what Christ has done, and no condemnation for those who are in Christ in verse 1 of chapter 8. I take the view that it's him, but as basically somebody who's looking back on his past life under the law of Moses and seeing, like, yes, this was all broken.
It was good. I mean, it was positive. It was helpful for me at the time, because it taught me what I needed to know. But it was never going to be effective to deal with this problem of my, you know, inner desire, but my physical lack of actually being able to accomplish these things. So I guess I kind of take a middle approach.
I don't know if we all have three very different or slightly different approaches on this one, but yeah, it is interesting. It's why this passage has become such a discussed in circles.
Ryan: That's what I would see too here, and I would say even as we think about it theologically and we're trying to read it, that that it's not like this is foreign to the Christian life to feel this way, stepping back from the text and then just how it lands with us, but it's like as we're still learning, hopefully as we grow in Christ, we start to understand our new identity, our new relationship with sin, our new relationship with the law, our new relationship with the Spirit, and all of those things, so that I think the way he introduces this topic in verses 5 and 6 becomes like a summary of what he's going to do in chapter 7 and what he's going to do in chapter 8, where in verse 5 he says, "For while we were living in the flesh," this is past tense, not that we aren't still in the body, right, and he's going to talk about the body as a problem.
Sin has some kind of power while we're still in this flesh, but he's talking about it like a realm. "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our members," our body parts, "to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."
And so what he's doing next is either, to take both views, is either, as you and I, Bryan, are saying, maybe he's going to show what that struggle in verse 5 was like under the law as our sinful passions were aroused by the law, and then in chapter 8 he's going to describe the new way of the Spirit, or, if I were making the case for the other view, the Pauline view, that it is describing a Christian, it's describing Paul himself at the time of writing, then he is, I guess, talking about the law and sin as well, but talking about the conflict that exists.
Dual Redemption Adoption Story
Ryan: And maybe, Allen, you could talk for a minute about an idea that I know kind of captured your spirits and understanding and imagination as you were finding hope in the idea of a second redemption, which is absolutely here in Romans 7
Allen: Yeah, absolutely. So I totally agree with everything you guys are saying about the helplessness of the law. And we don't have to stay in what he's feeling.
We're all on board with that. I just want to be absolutely clear. You cannot read Romans 7 without Romans 8. He's simply drawing a contrast of, hey, regardless of whether you felt like this under the law or whether you feel like this now, the old law is not the solution. Christ and his Holy Spirit is the solution.
But going back to your question, Ryan, I see more plainly now that we've discussed this so many times is like a dual redemption where our spirits are redeemed and then our bodies and our flesh kind of catch up. And so I don't think it's a coincidence that Romans 8 ends up talking about our second adoption, as it were, the redemption of our bodies. I don't think I've used this analogy yet in any of our conversations, but if I could just use a very personal analogy with you guys and for your listeners who don't know, I adopted my two boys from China. We made trips over to China to adopt the boys, and the Chinese government signed over these boys to us.
And it was signed, sealed, delivered. They were ours. But then we had to come back to the States. The States did not, the United States did not recognize those adoptions. And like, they didn't know their name, like their new names. They didn't know the English language. They didn't know really, because they were such small toddlers when we adopted them.
They didn't know that they were really part of our family. So like there was this signed, sealed, and delivered, you know, version of the adoption in China. And then some other things kind of had to catch up. And that's the way I see redemption. Like we are spiritually redeemed, signed, sealed, delivered.
There is a spiritual reality that we exist in the heavenly places with Christ. But our appetites, our flesh, and some of the sinful appetites that we have grown to love because we were all addicted to sin or practicing sin before our conversion, those got to catch up.
Ryan: Yeah.
Allen: And the way I see it is that that's not going to be fully complete.
That adoption process will not be fully complete until I receive my new body. And so I have my spiritual redemption, and then I have my fleshly redemption, which I'll get my new body. And then in between that, I see this struggle where my flesh, I'm training my flesh through the Holy Spirit. I think I can.
I don't want to leave the indication that we're just completely helpless. I know we're all sensitive to that. And that's the way it sounds in Romans 7, that he is completely helpless, which actually lends itself to your guys's argument. I don't think we're completely helpless. The Holy Spirit is training us.
We are training alongside of him for our flesh to be trained with what our spiritual reality
Already Not Yet in Romans 8
Bryan: Yeah, there's an idea that is thrown around a lot, the "already, not yet" idea. You know, we're already being saved. You know, we are already saved, but we're not yet fully saved. Like, we're not yet there in terms of, like, having, maybe put a different way in verse 37 of chapter 8, Paul says that we are more than conquerors through him who loved us, but we're also still on the battlefield.
Like, we're still currently involved in spiritual warfare. So we've conquered, we've won through Christ, but we're still in the middle of the battle. Maybe that's how I'm viewing sort of what you're
Ryan: it. Or to add, you know, just to read the verses in the middle of chapter 8 as well, that is why, even after we become a Christian, we can feel this kind of struggle, and it can be resonant, is because of our body.
Here in Romans 8, verse 20, "For the creation was subjected to fullity, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it to hope." All of the world, all of creation, has this utility that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage, corruption, and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now, and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit. So here we have the firstfruits of the Spirit, but we groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
And that's that second redemption that you're talking about there, Allen, and I think that's totally true. We are redeemed, our spirits are redeemed, but that redemption is not complete, so we're still gonna struggle here. And so that's why I think that there is a really good argument in what you're saying.
My concern would be what you said, that it does not sound consistent with the rest of everything else he says to have the kind of absolute slavery to sin that he describes, and hopelessness, that he is obviously leading to at the end of chapter 7 and into chapter 8, a relief from that hopelessness even here while we are still Christians.
But I--man, I think it's compelling, and I go back and forth as I read one. Some of my best favorite commentators and scholars on Romans take your view, Allen, and some of them take this other view, and so I'm going back and forth seeing the case on both sides, and I think that's why in this episode we wanted to show both sides of the textual discussion, but also emphasize the importance of seeing that tension, because that's really what we're both talking about.
We all agree there is this tension between Romans 7 and Romans 8, between redemption now versus redemption fully. And I think it's just really important that Christians not lose themselves in either side of that discussion, but understand where we live in this moment, where the overlap of the kingdom and the fullness of the kingdom are at this moment.
Past Then Now Tension
Bryan: Let me throw in one more note, I guess, because I had mentioned the "already, not yet," which, you know, you were just sort of seeing as like, it does definitely make sense.
Like, it feels that way in my gut that this is an "already, not yet" kind of thing that Paul's talking about. But then what you had talked about a little bit ago, Ryan, which something clicked for me when I was reading through this, was in verses 5 and 6 of chapter 7, there's a different kind of tension. It was a "back then, but now."
So verse 5 is talking about for while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions aroused by the law. So he's looking back. He's saying, "This is how we used to be." And now, in verse 6, he says, "But now we're released from the law." So there is, I think there's both tensions here. There used to be a way we lived, but now we live a different way.
And also a, you know, "already, not yet" kind of idea that Allen was talking about. And on those two verses, verses 5 and 6 of chapter 7, I think, and I agree with you, I think they are outlining what he's going to say next. I think verse 5 of chapter 7 highlights the end of chapter 7, and then verse 6 highlights chapter 8.
And I think he's basically just doing like an outline of, you know, let's talk about the things that were going on under the law. And then now, here's what happens in Christ. But, you know, again, with all of these things, how does this, you know, get down to our day-to-day life? And really, I think the sensitivity we have in this is like, we don't just get to throw up our hands and say, "Well, sin has just taken so hold of me that I can't do anything about it."
Or on the other end of that, like, "I just don't struggle with sin anymore. Sin isn't a problem. Let's just move on." I think both of those perspectives are why verses like this, we really need to get them under our belt in a confident.
Allen: the—that's the crux of my sensitivity.
Pastoral Concerns and Assurance
Allen: I understand, you know, within broader American Christianity, okay, if I can use that term, you know, there are traditions who basically say, "You can't help yourself.
You are completely broken because you are completely sinful." And I don't think that's our reality. We can train our flesh through God's Holy Spirit to match up with the reality of our spiritual selves and our spiritual realities. My sensitivity, and it might be because of some of the background that all three of us experience, is that people are very discouraged by their fight with sin a lot of times, you know, in a lot of conservative traditions.
So they become a Christian, and they expect, whether it's like three weeks, whether it's two years, whether it's 20 years, they expect sin and the appetite for sin to just go away. And as crazy as that may sound to some of your listeners, that's a real thing. And so people that I know—and like within the last—within the last week, I have talked with somebody who's in their 40s who's discouraged based on, you know, the appetites and the struggles that they're still experiencing.
And so my greatest sensitivity is that some of the more conservative thoughts have given the indication that once you're converted, once you have true faith, and it kind of makes people feel like, "Well, maybe I don't even have faith." But once you have true faith, you're truly converted, you know, that those appetites are just going to go away. And all of us would say, "That's not true," regardless of what Romans 7 is talking about. But that is my sensitivity, that we may be not even on purpose, but we may have given people the indication that real faith, real conversion, is just not going to—is going to lead to a life of just eliminating sin or the want to sin completely. And I just don't see that until I get my new
Ryan: yeah, I really--I so appreciate your heart for people and for the Christian who is trying to make sense of all of this and is overcome, and you're such a great voice on a topic we're going to talk about a lot this season, which is grace. Maybe we can have you on to talk about that some more at some point.
But the idea that if I emphasize in one particular lesson that a Christian should be-- should not be stuck in sin and trapped in sin and that kind of thing,if I don't give a fuller picture, someone is going to walk home and feel completely discouraged and is going to think, "There's something wrong with me," because we live with this anyway.
Everybody else seems to have it together. Nobody that I really respect is maybe talking about their sin and their struggle, so I must be the only one. And grace doesn't make sense to us anyways, because it kind of breaks logic. Nothing else in our world operates on grace, and so we're trying to see it, and then we're stuck in that.
other part of it that I would just want to temper that with, this perspective that you are beautifully bringing out, that we will struggle, and that is the normal Christian life. The struggle is evidence of life in Christ, not evidence that you are lost. If you're not fighting against sin, you are not a Christian.
But the other side of that is to see hope. To put it with Jesus' words, if you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you are blessed. You will be satisfied. Not because, "Okay, a year into my Christianity, I have it figured out," or even, "Fifty years into my Christianity, I don't struggle with sin anymore," but that there is this growing experience of life in Christ.
And I think if we don't teach that part of it, then people don't realize there's more. That you can start to put your confidence in God, and He will not only forgive your sins, but there is grace that is at work in you to help you meet that challenge again and again differently. And it comes in a counterintuitive way, not through our amazing willpower, but through us owning our weakness before Him and continually letting Him have more and more of the control, until we see that maybe something that I struggled with for years doesn't have the grip on me yet.
And that is the transition from Romans 7 to Romans 8 as we flip the page. Not from struggle, not into perfection, but into growing constantly towards Christ and not stuck in
Romans 7 to Romans 8 Hope
Bryan: It is interesting, I think, when you think about what Paul is saying here, and you compare that with what he says elsewhere in so many other verses about himself. And as you really start thinking about like Galatians 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 and other passages like Philippians 3, how he talks about his own struggle with sin and how he doesn't feel like it is overwhelmed him to the point where he can't, you know, he can't do anything anymore about it.
Or like, that's why I think, you know, verses like Romans 7 just stand out as almost an outlier because it does feel like this is one of the only times that Paul gets really open about his own struggle. But like, it doesn't sound like the language that he uses in so many other passages throughout the Scripture.
So, you know, I think it is clear like from Romans 6 that he is absolutely saying like, I mean, just constantly, by the way, in Romans 6, that we have died to sin. We are no longer slaves of sin. We are dead to sin. Don't let sin reign in your bodies, like all throughout chapter 6. It's like, "Do not sin. Sin is out."
But then he gets to Romans 7 and it's like, that's why I think so many of us like can connect with what he's saying here because that struggle is real. Like,
Ryan: Yes.
Bryan: experience the struggle.
But, like you're saying, Ryan, burn the page, right? Because chapter 8 is where this all comes into clarity.
So that may be the most important place. Like, if you are connecting with what Paul says in chapter 7 in a deep way, like, continue to move on. Push on to chapter 8.
Ryan: But I think that what you just said is actually the most compelling argument for Romans 7, the way that Allen's talking about it, is it feels so familiar, right? And so I think that the first person, the way he says "I" throughout, is a really strong case for what you're saying, Allen. But then also just like, "Boy, it feels true.
Feels true to me. I've been there." You know? And so to see the Apostle Paul living in that same struggle that I sometimes find myself in is really a part of--it ultimately becomes, if we put it in context as you are, Allen, it becomes hopeful rather than hopeless. To say, "Okay, I know that Paul isn't living in just like, 'Oh, sin.
I'm just defeated by it.'" We know Paul better than that from his writing. So we can see, "Okay, so sometimes he sees himself there too. I can be there." And that would be, to me, one of my arguments for your side of the case there,
Allen: Yeah, and if I could just bring up Romans 6, because you quoted or alluded to a lot of great passages that confuse people in Romans 6, Bryan, when you talked about being dead to sin, verse 12, you know, "Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies." And I would say, going back to the dual redemption idea, I would say Romans 6 is your spiritual reality.
But then as soon as you read what your spiritual reality is, like, "I'm dead to sin. That's in the grave. I'm a new man." Then we look at our reality of our lives, and we're like, "Oh, man," you know, which is why Romans 7, I think, is so powerful. And then Romans 8 kind of brings everything together in the full redemption of mankind, including our bodies and creation itself.
But I—not to talk out of both sides of my mouth, but I want to give your side of the argument some credence. What Bryan said is very true regarding Paul and the language of Paul that he uses in other letters. You know, "I haven't obtained it," you know, Philippians 3, "but this one thing I do, you know, I'm pressing on."
And so it's not the vision of being captured and enslaved. Romans 7 is ramped. It is ramped up. Which, you know, makes me wonder if he's actually talking about somebody pre-Christ, pre-conversion. So But I think we have touched on the possibilities of Romans 7 while still acknowledging that the struggle with sin is real.
And if we can get true believers to accept that and realize what their spiritual reality in Christ is, there's no condemnation, Romans 8.1. And that brings so much freedom. It brings so much peace. And that thought and feeling is going to push us, I think, to greater spiritual heights than ever.
No Condemnation Big Picture
Ryan: Just to pull that together here as we bring it back to Jesus here, which you just did, this storyline that he is telling, we don't want to pull out Romans 7 so we keep bringing in-- and really I would say chapters 5 through 8 are a piece of Romans that are telling a bigger story than one person's story or one person's guilt over sin, but about almost like this cosmic picture about how sin enters like a force into this world through Adam's sin, and it is figurative but real.
He's almost personifying sin, but sin takes the law and does bad things with a good thing. It takes our bodies and starts to make the flesh a realm for it to do its work, and it starts to take humanity and make us enslaved under this power of doing the wrong thing that creates a conflict between us and God, not taking away our personal responsibility.
But that's how Paul talks about it is, you know, sin, verse 21 of chapter 5, "rains in death." So also grace rain through righteous leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and that brings us to that powerful kind of a resolution of the tension of Romans 7 that Allen was just pointing to.
There is therefore now no condemnation. So now there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Things have changed. Yes, we'll struggle, but we're not condemned. We're not under that same power, that same reign, the realm, the domain of a power that is holding us back. Rather, we are in the clutch of Christ.
There's that song we sing, "In Christ alone I find my hope." And in Christ we are no longer enslaved. Nothing can snatch us from his hand. We are alive. Everything is different, even though I look around at my life and old habits still seem to have some force. And so that's the tension we're living in.
Bryan: think that's very well said.
Fight Sin with Grace
Bryan: And, I don't know if any of us have changed our minds or our positions, but at least we've had a good conversation seeing each other's sides of it.
And I think, you know, hopefully if you're getting into this passage and you're confused by what Paul is saying, hopefully you get to the same conclusion that he's trying to get us to.
But again, I do find that it could be such a temptation to throw up my hands and say, well, like, like Paul said, I am what I am. Right? Like, I'm not entirely sure. That's what he would appreciate as part of this, as if, like, sin wasn't a big deal.
Allen: Yeah, he our battle with sin literally as a war.
Bryan: Yeah.
Allen: So we got to fight the fight. Don't want to throw up our hands. But at the same time, just praise him, honor him, appreciate the grace that we have in him. I think his greatest motivation to fight sin that I have, it's already defeated on the cross.
So I want to honor what he did for me on the cross by fighting sin because I know what it brings. I know what he did. I know what it cost him. Rather than just, "Hey, I need to fix this in myself." Well, good luck with that.
Bryan: Oh, boy.
Wrap Up and Where to Listen
Bryan: Well, this has been fun. Yeah, I think I think there are more opportunities to get Allen on board here with some conversations I know we're in the middle of and going to have about grace. Man, there's so much to talk about. So, Allen, thank you for joining us here on the show. Appreciate it. Do you have anything you want to plug?
Anything that you're working on? Anything you're studying through right now?
Allen: No, nothing that's really in the public sector where people get access other than the podcast. The Plainfield Ponderings podcast is always out there if people want to ponder alongside of their geek sessions. But no, nothing specific, guys. I just really appreciate the honor to be on your program. I listen to you guys often.
I mowed my lawn last night for the first time this year. So I'm back to a lot more podcast listening than I had been because that's normally my podcast listening. Such an honor to be with you guys. Love you guys a lot. You guys do great work on here. I know some people in my neck of the woods that are listening to you guys now, having been introduced to Bryan and the gospel meeting that he preached here.
So keep up the good work. Can I say shalom at the very end like Bryan?
Bryan: you absolutely can. Well, let me do the closer here. So thanks everyone for tuning in to the Bible Geeks podcast. You can find us on our website at biblegeeks.fm. You can find show notes for this episode and all of the episodes there on our website as well. Got a lot of resources there. You want to get in touch with us, reach out, ask us a question.
You can do that there on our website as well. And until in the next episode, everyone, may the Lord bless you and keep you.