Mini: Angels

PODCAST
Written By Ryan Joy & Bryan Schiele
 

264 | “I Have No Idea”

Understand God’s Heavenly Helpers

Every time a bell rings, does an angel get his wings? Probably not. In this season finale, we're' separating the Hallmark movie myths from the biblical reality of angels. We kick things off with a round of "Angel Jeopardy," debunking chubby cherubs and shoulder angels, before diving into the "Hot Seat" to answer the big questions. Do angels still work in the world today? Do we actually have "guardian angels," or is that just a nice thought? And what does it really mean to "entertain angels unawares" — are we dealing with celestial "secret shoppers"? Join us as we look behind the curtain at the invisible armies encamped around us.

Takeaways

The Big Idea: Angels are God’s powerful servants, carrying out his purposes and ministering to us!

This Week's Challenge: TKTK

  • Ryan: That's it. Isn't that a weird idea? What

    Introduction and Welcome

    Ryan: do you think that's about?

    Bryan: I I have no idea well hello everyone and welcome to the Bible geeks podcast I'm Bryan Schiele

    Ryan: I'm Ryan Joy.

    Bryan: and today on this Bible geeks mini episode We are talking about angels not the kind in the outfield or in the Hallmark movies But the real ones that we read about in Scripture.

    Ryan: Christians today.

    Bible Jeopardy: Angel Edition

    Ryan: But first, I have an angel edition of Bible Jeopardy. I'm going to throw at you right now, Bryan. Are you ready?

    Bryan: Let's go

    Ryan: All right. This is Jeopardy, Bryan. Here we go. We've got some angel fiction as our first category. Ready for your first answer? And I would like these in the form of a question whenever you

    Bryan: why like nope.

    Ryan: to me.

    Bryan: No pressure, dude. I'm

    Ryan: No pressure. Yeah. Yeah. OK. All right. When a bell rang, it signaled that this angel got his wings. Again, fictional angels.

    Bryan: This would have been from that movie that I've never watched It's

    Ryan: Oh, you're kidding me, Bryan. Come on. Yes,

    Bryan: a wonderful life, what is that movie?

    Ryan: is. Oh, man, you have some homework to do this holiday season.

    Bryan: so

    Ryan: Yes. The answer is who or the question is, who is Clarence from? It's a Wonderful Life.

    Bryan: would not have gotten that so I'm glad we're off to a great start

    Ryan: So it's kind of interesting that that in that movie he is he had died and he came back as an angel. And I don't know. Have you ever heard this idea that that Christ, like whenever you die, you become an angel?

    Bryan: Oh, yes I've heard that idea and I've also heard it in reference to Some biblical passages that are kind of interesting what in Acts 12 when Peter shows up from prison And they don't believe it's him and someone thinks it's his angel like meaning he's died So, I mean we don't want to get too deep into it But like yes, I have heard that and and it's an interesting theory.

    Ryan: Yeah. Let's let's come back to that in Acts 12, because I actually think something else is coming is going on there. But but we'll get into that when we get into guardian angels later. All right. So next fiction angel question or answer. This angel is a chubby baby with tiny wings and a bow and arrow.

    Bryan: This would not be the cherubim but a cherub. Are you talking about cherubs?

    Ryan: Yeah. Like a Renaissance cherub, like from Michael, like Sistine Chapel. Or I would have also accepted who is Cupid,

    Bryan: who is Cupid?

    Ryan: you know,

    Bryan: Yeah, I didn't give it in the form of a question either maybe but Yeah, I think I think if you actually look at cherubim versus the cute chubby babies that cherubs are These are very different creatures like a four-faced guardian is definitely not a baby.

    Ryan: Yeah. Totally different in Ezekiel and that kind of thing. The cherubim. OK, so last one for the fiction, an angel representing your better conscience is often depicted sitting here.

    Bryan: Ooh Well, this would be on I don't know which shoulder. So what is your shoulder?

    Ryan: That that is correct. I did not have a specific shoulder. Probably right. I don't know. But

    Bryan: also wearing a halo, which is an interesting one That we don't actually see in

    Ryan: What do you think is going on with that?

    Bryan: I don't like what why do halos show up in the Bible? I don't know. Like why are they on a cloud with a harp in pop culture?

    I have no idea these there's a lot of reasoning behind some of these things that I'm just not connected with So, yeah, no clue actually.

    Ryan: I think maybe it goes back to like the Renaissance art again. Like, you know, they're they're up on a cloud. There's always the big halo around, you know, in the art of Jesus or Mary or these angels. But the idea of the the shoulder angel, basically, I mean, obviously it's in cartoons, it's a it's a it's a whole different thing that's developed.

    But I found out that that goes back to have you ever heard of the Shepherd of Hermas?

    Bryan: that sounds really familiar. Why does that sound so familiar? Yeah, no.

    Ryan: it's a early second century Christian writing that comes up a lot, kind of kind of cool writing. And he he talks about there. There's like a righteous and an unrighteous angel accompanying a person, you know, obviously extra biblical as all of these are fictional. but but anyway, yeah, good job. I would say you got definitely missed the first one.

    I say you get two out of three there. You're doing well.

    Angel Facts from the Bible

    Ryan: OK, next category is angel fact. So these are our three things actually from the Bible. So answer number one, these two angels of God are named in Scripture.

    Bryan: Hmm That would definitely be Gabriel

    Ryan: Uh huh.

    Bryan: Sorry, who is Gabriel

    Ryan: There you go.

    Bryan: who is? Michael I believe if we were gonna give two names to angels.

    Ryan: Excellent. Yeah, there there are two two angels we know their names of for sure that are angels of God. The archangel Michael and then Gabriel, and both are in Daniel. Gabriel also shows up, of course, talking in the before the birth of Jesus there. So, OK, next one.

    These are two particular times angels ministered to Christ.

    Bryan: What are Jesus in the Wilderness fasting and Jesus prayer before the crucifixion. Yeah Cool.

    Ryan: Excellent. OK, you nailed it. Nailed it. I love those pictures. Are those what a an insight into what angels can do as they minister,

    Bryan: well at his lowest moments, right two of the lowest moments. Yeah

    Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. OK, last one, though humans were made lower than angels. Psalm 8, Hebrews 2. One day Christians will do this towards angels, according to 1 Corinthians

    Bryan: Ah, so this would be What is judge the angels?

    Ryan: That's it. That's it. Isn't that a weird idea? What do you think that's about?

    Bryan: I I have no idea well, it reminded me of Jesus promise to the churches I forget which one now off the top of my head But the church is in Revelation when he's talking about sitting with him on his throne to the one whoever comes you'll sit with me on my throne and Yeah, that's a weird thought just to even be given that privilege to judge in some way But what does it then mean to judge angels?

    Dude? I have no idea.

    Ryan: Evidently, we're going to have some kind of authority to rule with Jesus, to judge the world, he also says in 1 Corinthians, judge angels. So maybe maybe the wicked angels are being judged by us. Obviously, Jesus is the actual one who is deciding ultimately all of these things. But

    Bryan: I feel like I was somewhat prepared for that I don't know. There are not very many references to angels throughout the Bible So just in my you know brief summary of looking through some things I feel like you you covered a lot of the stuff I had prepared for in thinking about these I we didn't pre pre

    Ryan: He had no idea. Yeah. What was coming?

    Bryan: but you know, there's really only a small subset of Particular angel questions you could have asked me to answer.

    So anyway, I that was cool All right

    Ryan: You did great. Yeah. I'm disappointed about you not seeing It's a Wonderful Life, but the Bible is certainly much more important than these false ideas of angels that show

    Bryan: I'm gonna have to go and watch that movie. I just know the the angel wings like ring the bell thing. That's about it I've been

    Ryan: yeah, it is my favorite holiday movie by far.

    So, yeah,

    Bryan: all right

    Ryan: there you go. All right. So now I'm going to put Bryan on the hot seat as if he wasn't already. And we'll together discuss a few questions about angels and Christians today.

    Discussion: Who Are Angels?

    Ryan: But first, what are angels? Who are angels? Like, let's talk just for a minute real quick about like getting a baseline.

    Who are these

    Bryan: well, I mean they are Spiritual beings it seems to be pretty clear and evident like that they exist in realms beyond this physical existence What are they they've been created by God for sure. So they're created beings Apparently they they're very active as we see these glimpses of throughout scripture But created beings by God and in the spiritual realm.

    Absolutely Beyond that. I mean we we probably could dive into a lot of what they do.

    Ryan: Yeah. No, that's that's a good overview. Psalm 148, Colossians 1, talk about them being created. Of course, throughout history, people have tried to worship them. That is not acceptable. They are worshipers of God. And like you say, just like servants, servants of God, but also ministering to to others as God sends them.

    So I thought I think that's a pretty good summary there.

    Bryan: Well the the words themselves that those words in the Hebrew and Greek To define an angel or to describe an angel. I mean that word is like the word for messenger generally so I think even they're like right in the name you're sort of given an idea that like they they serve a purpose on behalf of the king as Some sort of you know messenger go-between that seems to be what their primary function is

    Ryan: It makes you think of the stairway or ladder that Jacob saw and the angels

    going up and down. a helpful picture to me that captures the the idea, the messenger idea. They're coming down, they're going up, they're doing things in the world, they're passing messages on often throughout the Bible.

    So, yeah, that's a that's a good point there. All right, Bryan, I'm going to put you on the hot seat and we'll figure some things out together. I've got three questions here.

    Do Angels Still Work Today?

    Ryan: Number one, do angels still work in the world

    Bryan: I have no idea You know, it's one of those questions that like you see their activity so much So like in the New Testament and and obviously in places in the Old Testament you see their activity You see them doing a lot of things. There's no there's no spot in the Bible like first Corinthians 13 For example where you see this sort of break as like the reasoning Why?

    Miracles don't continue to happen or why there's no need for these sort of miraculous spiritual gifts anymore You don't necessarily see that kind of language given about angels and their work like of course, they still exist And there's no evidence. There's no reason for me to believe that they don't continue to work But yeah, I I would say I have no idea but my strong inclination is they continue to work today though How how they do that?

    I'm not entirely sure. What do you think as as the the one sort of putting this question together?

    Ryan: an interesting response that you are you're you're really you're working through to like, why wouldn't they? Right. And and yet like maybe some discomfort with the idea of them still being involved in the world. Yeah. I mean, I see the same thing. There is no indication that something is different. Hebrews 114 gives their purpose.

    Or one of the things they do, are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? Guess who that is? That's us. We will inherit salvation. So they are sent out as ministering spirits to to do God's will as he as he works in our lives and takes care of us.

    So scripture certainly presents them as active servants of God. I don't know why we would ever think It's very similar to our discussion about Providence, right?

    In fact, these are really related because often God accomplishes his will through angels in the Bible. And so absolutely, we're not told, like you said, like the details, the frequency.

    And I would say we always want to emphasize God's work and not like people get obsessed with angels. People pray for angels to do, you know, like even pray to angels sometimes in, you know, in other religions. And we can we can elevate this and get too into this idea rather than focusing on these are sent from God to accomplish God's will.

    But they are just like we are created partners with God and why he chose us to help him accomplish his work. I don't fully understand, but that's how he's done it. He likewise chose these other created beings to partner with him. And and they, I certainly believe, are still at work in our lives today.

    Bryan: Well that that's helpful and I think you know tying it to the Providence conversation is really a powerful one because you know I don't know how God does the work that he does I believe that he does it and whether or not he uses these ministering spirits to do some of that work I don't know, but you can imagine he's he's got it well under control with however, he's carrying it out So maybe maybe moving on here to the next question.

    I I have a feeling this one is gonna get even deeper

    Guardian Angels: Myth or Reality?

    Ryan: So this next question, do we have guardian angels? And I've been asked this many times through the years as this subject of angels comes up and it's always in the movies and that kind of thing. So what do you think? Is there any biblical evidence for guardian angels, like one person assigned one angel somewhere?

    Bryan: Well, okay, so, you know, I feel like where this idea comes from is yesyour Hallmark movies and those kinds of

    things But it's interesting when you go to Matthew 18 10 how Jesus says see to it that you do not despise one of these little ones For I tell you that in heaven their angels they are not, you know, th e re but th e ir as in possessive angels Their angels always see the face of my father in heaven.

    And so what on earth is Jesus saying there, you know, it's uh, It implies that there are angelic beings that are assigned to people now I don't know what that means because that's obviously not the subject of what Jesus was talking about is as he does so often Like throws in these offhand like oh, well as you all know, like wait a second.

    Do we know that Jesus? So, you know, the fact is it seems like there is some connection between angels and us

    Though I don't quite know how that works. it does seem like there is some kind of evidence Maybe to support that and you had mentioned something about Acts 12 earlier as like circling back into this conversation What do you think here about the answer to this question about guardian angels?

    Ryan: I don't think we know. And I think that that passage you brought up is the key. I think Matthew 1810, that says that at the very least, children have angels that are looking out for

    Bryan: So you're saying little

    Ryan: are.

    Bryan: case?

    Ryan: That's yeah, I think so. Yeah. Don't keep these kids from coming to me. Don't you know that their angels are always before my father?

    In other words, God is is watching out, you know, throughout the Bible. He's looking out for the weak among us and that kind of thing. Get care from God. And

    That's where I would lean towards rather than like a guardian angel thing. But there is this idea in extra biblical literature, in early Jewish and and, you know, some Christian belief of a personal angel that actually resembles you.

    There's some writings that talk about like each person having an angel that looks like you physically. And so I think that's what's going on. Rather than them thinking in Acts 12, as Peter shows up at the house and he's been in prison, them thinking, oh, he must be dead. And this is like his spirit afterwards and them calling it an angel.

    I think what's happening is not that this is actually true, but that they're thinking, oh, this looks like him. And so it must be his angel because he's in prison. So he can't be he can't be here. so it's it's not really an evidence if it's just because God isn't with authority saying this is how it

    is, but it's showing, yeah, what they're believing,

    I don't think of it as us having a guardian angel. But I do think that angels are given specific charges. And so so you could I think in Daniel, there's this picture of nations, different nations having angels like princes over them that are assigned to tending to the issues of that particular nation.

    So there's different things that different angels are given as assignments. And there could certainly be an angel that's meant to keep Bryan alive and on track and don't don't run into that car. You know, here you go. I don't know. You know, all of this. There's so much we don't know, like the Providence conversation.

    But we do want to rest in what we do know, that angels are are alive. They are at work. They are sent as ministering spirits to serve those who are going to inherit salvation. So we certainly could have somebody that's looking out for

    Bryan: You really do get like the conflation of pop culture and what the Bible says about these things kind of on stark relief here Like you're seeing these two Depictions very clearly what the Bible has to say what what pop culture has to say and boy I mean if we if we don't, you know approach with some amount of care the The things we think we know because we've seen them on a painting somewhere like we might Yeah, we might get ourselves into trouble So I think I think that's helpful bringing it back to Hebrews 1 verse 14 there

    Entertaining Angels Unawares

    Ryan: Well, we're going to keep cranking it up one more level here and go to Hebrews chapter 13, and there we read about the way the the King James said it. "Some have entertained angels unawares," or, you know, the ESV says, " Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

    Actually, ESV has unawares. It doesn't sound like a modern English phrase, So what do you think is what is the point of this passage and what's going on there? Yeah.

    Bryan: well, I I think the Hebrews writer is is Echoing back to Genesis 18 where Abraham is showing this like radical over-the-top Hospitality to these strangers quote-unquote who show up in his tent and it turns out there's two angels and apparently Somehow the Lord himself there how that is what what that means.

    I'm not entirely confident on but the fact that the text says that these two were angels and and the Lord and

    so I think he's just Throwing back there to that reference of saying look, you know you just don't know who you're going to be talking to and

    It sort of reminds me of like when I worked in retail how?

    we used to have secret shoppers and these were people hired by a you know, third-party company to come in and like shop with us and Evaluate their experience of how we did and you know, we'd get these secret shopper reports about you know How welcoming we were and how much we solved their problem if they had one and all these kinds of things just kind of make You I think what the Hebrews writer is saying here is like listen Somebody is watching you and how you deal with people and how you treat people it happened to Abraham So maybe it could happen to you,

    Ryan: I love the secret shopper illustration. That is, you're going to have secret shoppers come to you. You don't know. You don't know whenever someone's going to show up. And Yeah.

    how would Abraham have felt if he had mistreated these people who are who are angels?

    But I think you're right on point, that the idea is practice hospitality because you never know. You never know. Like, and maybe more likely underlying all of this is you could be entertaining a messenger bearing the gospel, you know?

    But the way he says it, it does seem like it's not like it's absolutely impossible this could happen, though I think the emphasis is Genesis 18.

    So, yeah. So let me bring this home with one last question.

    Favorite Angel Stories and Verses

    Ryan: What is your favorite angel verse or angel story, or what is something that gives you assurance or that helps you to really find strength and encouragement in the idea that the Lord has these angels working with him in our

    Bryan: There's no way I can't talk about second Kings six here in

    terms of Elisha and his servant as they were Surrounded by the enemy forces and Elisha is just like cool as a cucumber and does not care at all Because you know he's able to see something that his servant can't and you know as he prays to God to allow His eyes to be opened then suddenly he sees the angelic forces the armies the the fiery chariots Behind the scenes it is it is one of the most I mean no pun intended Reopening verses that really just helps me to see that there's something going on behind the scenes very much You know the book of Ephesians talking about the spiritual warfare and everything there There's some something happening and I don't know what it is I can't see it But isn't it reassuring to me to know that though I don't see something That I know that that it's being taken care of and that really I think is the essence of faith in general is To to not be able to see behind the curtain, but to still know and acknowledge that God has got this But I love that verse that's that's my favorite angel story verse in the Bible, and I think if you pick a different one You're wrong

    Ryan: I have one that goes with it, but what that made me think of is that song. Can you guys sing that song, "This is Holy Ground and We Know That There Are Angels All Around"? Just that idea of you can't see it, but if you could open your eyes, your recording room is not far from angels.

    So I was thinking of Psalm 34, 7, and it does talk about encamping, kind of like this idea of like the army of angels around us. And ever since I was a little kid, I've gone back to this passage. I think it's David writing, and he says, "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him and delivers them."

    that picture, I remember like trying to go to sleep at night as a little kid. You know how like you're looking at the windows, and maybe the curtains aren't completely closed. And, you know, there's just an anxiety that comes with being a kid and just thinking about this idea. "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him and delivers them."

    The idea that God is sending protection. God cares. God hears my prayers. God is going to look out for me. And these angels are just, you know, are agents of God to help accomplish that.

    Bryan: this has been a fun discussion I think you know as we may not have answered all of everyone's questions about angels And we may have made things more confusing than they originally were but I you know anytime we get a chance to Kind of nerd out about these things that we don't often talk about I think it's a good day So thanks for putting me on the hot seat Ryan.

    Hopefully I did okay.

    Ryan: You did great. You did great.

    Season Wrap-Up and Farewell

    Ryan: And what a great season it's been.

    Bryan: Yeah. Oh, yeah at the end of the season Yep, thanks everyone for tuning in and for hanging with us We've had a fun time had some really interesting discussions geektober And you know a lot of these things about burnout and joy and just kind of you know mixing it up this season We've really enjoyed this time and no idea what's on the future But we don't want to make any big announcements, but looking forward to continuing some interesting discussions as we move forward

    Ryan: Yeah, I think a highlight of the season for me has been that discussion you brought up about like burnout, as well as this question, like, what's it time for now? Like that just kept showing up as we went, and that's affected my life a lot. You know, what is the season that I'm in right now?

    Bryan: yeah, that's always good all right everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in to the Bible geeks podcast You can find show notes for this episode in your podcast player or at Bible geeks FM and until next episode everyone May the Lord bless you keep you

    Ryan: Hello?

 
Ryan Joy & Bryan Schiele
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