The Challenge of Healthy Boundaries
259 | “You're a Quote Man”
Love Well Within God’s Limits
Boundaries can feel like barriers, but they're actually God's way of teaching us how to love and live more freely. We explore the spiritual tightrope between sacrificial service and self-destruction, asking: How can we take up our cross without letting it lead to burnout? We dive into Galatians 6 to distinguish between bearing our own "rucksack" (personal load) and carrying a brother's crushing "burden". We cover discernment, the idol of approval, and why saying "no" out of love is necessary to avoid falling into co-dependence or resentment. Let's find the freedom God offers within his established limits.
Takeaways
The Big Idea: Healthy boundaries are love in action — honoring God’s design so we can love others wisely and live within our limits.
This Week's Challenge: Ask yourself: “What am I truly responsible for — and what am I simply trying to control?” Watch for an unwise “yes” that should be a gentle “no.”
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Welcome to the Bible Geeks Podcast
Bryan: Like you're a quote man. I can totally now understand a new level of Ryan Joy understanding that you wrote quotes on a poster board in high school well, hello everyone, and welcome to the Bible Geeks podcast. I'm Bryan Schiele.
Ryan: I'm Ryan Joy.
Bryan: And thanks so much, everyone, for tuning in.
Introduction to Boundaries
Bryan: Today, we're talking about boundaries. They can feel like barriers, but they're actually God's way of teaching us how to love and live more freely.
Ryan: So in this episode, we'll explore a handful of biblical boundary principles and share some real life stories of how setting healthy limits can lead us to deeper, more authentic relationships.
Bryan: I'm excited about today's conversation because I feel like this is a nice follow-on from our discussion earlier about burnout. And this season has kind of had a few episodes that tie loosely together that we've spaced out a little bit. And having had some time to think about that conversation that we had about burnout and dealing with burnout and those kinds of things, I feel my body is ready for a conversation about saying no and about establishing healthy boundaries.
So let's do this.
Ryan: Yeah, I mean, I think that it has been a hard lesson for me to learn, and it almost sounds like, just like, self-help mumbo-jumbo when you first hear, you know, the idea, and then, you know, you start thinking about the biblical guidance on some of these principles, and you start to realize, okay, some things can be twisted or used improperly, but there is something really important that, you know, in my family life, in my friendships, in my relationships with people as I try to serve the world, I have not always been particularly healthy or followed the Bible's guidance on these ideas.
So I hope this is helpful for everybody as we get into
Bryan: We're going to try to keep this from being overly navel-gaysy, but yeah, I do appreciate that, you know, there is a fine line between, yeah, those kinds of self-help ideas and really just functional, deep, biblical application of some important principles. So hopefully we get to that part here in short order, but let's start this out maybe with a lighter question.
Personal Stories of Saying No
Bryan: And this doesn't actually feel like a very light question, but what is something that you have said yes to that you probably should have said no to?
Ryan: You want to go first? Because I don't know the answer right away. I'm thinking about
Bryan: no to answering the question.
[ Yeah, so for me, I struggle with this all the time and I tend to be the one who offers myself up on the altar of work travel.
Ryan: Laughter] Uh,
Bryan: when there's a bunch of people sitting around in the room saying, "I don't want to go on this trip. "No, I don't want to go on this trip." I'll usually be the one to say, " I'll go on this trip."
And then oftentimes it winds up being really important that I was there, but sometimes I wind up committing to things that I really wish I hadn't committed to. So saying yes to some things like work travel is often stuff that I probably should be saying no to, but man, there is that fear there. Like, what is my boss going to think about me if I decide to stay home like everyone else
Ryan: I definitely can relate to the work aspect, and we've kind of talked about this a little bit. Like you said, the burnout aspect and everything. You know, I think that also there is this guilt that comes in whenever there are people who you run into who are really in need, and, you know, you want to help them, and then you realize that they are not willing to help themselves at some point.
And that's something that underlies a lot of this conversation for me, where it really was a breakthrough for me. Like, you know, I run into a lot of people who, you know, come into the church building or somehow get in contact with me or that kind of thing that, you know, are not in a great place in their lives.
And they say, you know, "Hey, we want to learn about the Lord. We want to, you know, you guys to help us spiritually." And you start doing that, and you're trying to also look out for their whole, you know, life and trying to help them. And sometimes that has been tremendous, and people have changed their whole lives as they've come to Christ and worked with them and, you know, are now stable in their housing and their lives.
But other times, they just don't want to actually do this stuff. They just want—they have developed a pattern of going from church to church, person to person in their life, and asking them to carry them. And so that's—there's a bunch of scenarios I can think of over the last decade where I've had to learn that from that standpoint of times I've said yes, that at some point I should have probably much earlier actually said no.
Bryan: Oh yeah, yeah, there's a lot that we can get into and unpack with that. But I think just touching on what you said, I mean, I brought up a work example. I guess you actually brought up a work example as well. I mean, from both of us, and in your cases, saying no to connecting with somebody at that level is going to feel a little bit more impactful than maybe me saying no to going to travel for work.
But I think that's helpful as a framing to sort of start off this conversation. There is a loving way to handle these relationships and interactions, and sometimes our no can feel unloving.
Deep Thoughts on Boundaries
Bryan: And so let's sort of unpack that a little bit more with a segment that we like to call Deep Thoughts. So
deep thoughts here on this idea of boundaries and saying no. Boundaries, they can feel selfish on the surface as we kind of start this thing out. When we think about boundaries, we might think about a no being a self-focused activity. I mean, shouldn't we be giving ourselves in service to other people?
Shouldn't we be out there committing ourselves to traveling or to saying yes to every person who comes in asking for spiritual guidance in our churches? Isn't that something that we should be
Biblical Guidance on Boundaries
Ryan: The starting point is love and service, and Jesus is our example of that, right? Jesus shows us that you give sacrificially of yourself. But Jesus had a purpose in what he was doing, and there were certain things that he said yes to and said no to.
There were things that he did. So, I mean, don't you think that a lot of Christians in your life—and maybe, you know, you and I are right there in the spotlight as two examples—can get so committed to loving others, spending themselves, that somehow then it can become like either a martyr, it can become resentment, it can become overburdening where they can't actually sustain it or do the right thing. It can become codependence or enabling to people. I mean, have you ever seen that?
Bryan: Right. - Yeah. I mean,
if you define yourself as sacrificial, like you were talking about, Jesus tells us to take up our cross and follow him. Like that is the ultimate act of self-sacrifice. We're giving of ourselves. But I feel like at some point that can turn into self-destruction if we take it too far, if feel like, yes, there are a lot of ways that people will view us if we ever say no. And there are a lot of ways that people who hear that no are going to react when we give it to them, if we give it to them. And I don't know. I mean, it's so complicated.
And that's why I guess this is a difficult thing to deal with because of the, in my head, I'm now just like spiraling around with all the different possibilities that could be going on when I give somebody a no. But one of those reactions that scares me the most is that people think I'm selfish now.
Ryan: well, I brought it back to Christ, but let's think about what Christ did and what he didn't do. Universalism is the teaching that Christ's sacrifice saves everyone.
That's a false teaching. Jesus' sacrifice is for everyone, but ultimately it's only those who repent who will be saved by it. God allows us to meet the consequences of our choices, and he doesn't enable us to just coast through—you brought up a while back in the AI episode, you brought up the WALL-E example, and that's been sticking with me ever since, of the robots carrying people around, and then they can't even walk.
Their muscles are so atrophied, and we can do that for people in our lives where we are the ones carrying them on our backs such that if they ever feel something—think of the unhealthy mom that all the adult kids are taking care of in such a way that she can't—they feel guilty if she feels any pain.
Or the friend that you're just constantly the helper with, or an adult parent with an adult child, right, even, that you're just not letting them deal with any of the consequences of the things that they do. You're not setting any limits to what you're going to do. And maybe that leads us to that next level where we get into Galatians 6, where we start to go a little below the surface.
Bryan: yeah, yeah. 'Cause Galatians 6 is telling us to obviously carry our burdens, but also to bear each other's burdens. And so we're talking on one hand about not carrying someone, like I think what you're saying is not carrying people on our back and just carrying them through life as if we're their, that's not what a Sherpa does.
A Sherpa leads, but a Sherpa does not like put all of the people on their own back and carry them up the mountain. what is the difference between worrying about your own things and also bearing other people's burdens as well?
Ryan: it. Just exegetically, it's helpful to distinguish these two words are two different words for bearing your own load and carrying someone's burdens, right? Helping bear their burdens. You're helping people whenever somebody is just crushed and they need some help for a period of time to help them.
And that's
just not reasonable to expect him to do right now. And so me and some other brothers are stepping in to say, "Brother, you deal with your—you know, take care of your family. Think about that. We're praying for you. We're here for you. And as far as this other stuff, we're going to handle that. Don't even worry about it."
Bryan: So you're saying verse two there, bear each other's burdens is like all hands on deck. We're gonna take care of this for you. Don't worry about it right now. This is an unusual circumstance that I'm gonna step in and support you in.
Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. But if that was how things always were with everybody in the church and they just were shirking off, what was theirs to do?
And I was coming in to rescue everybody constantly. They aren't going to grow and learn. They aren't going to ever be healthy, and I'm not going to be healthy and holy in the way that God wants me to do.
Balancing Love and Boundaries
Ryan: What we seek in love is what Christ sought in love, which is their good, their real good. Not just what's easy for them, not just their happiness, not just harmony and peace between us in like a peace-peace where there is no peace.
Like we're—I'm avoiding the conflicts because I'm so scared of conflict or something like that. It's no, we're going to deal with issues. I'm going to deal with what's mine, and I have to deal with what's mine. I have to deal with my own family. And when other people's burdens are keeping me from dealing with my family in a healthy way or my own spiritual well-being and life and relationship with God and my, you know, ability, I'll sacrifice, absolutely.
But there is a limit to that because I'm a limited human. I can't do everything.
Bryan: Yeah, well, you can't and you shouldn't do everything, right, because verse five in this verse in Galatians 6 is talking about bearing his own load or bearing my own load. And I think you were headed somewhere when you were talking about these two different words for burden there and I cut you off, but in verse five, that word is different than the word we read in verse two.
Ryan: It's cargo a lot of times in a ship, or it's a soldier's backpack.
Bryan: Okay,
Ryan: I carry my backpack. You carry your backpack, right?
Bryan: right. - but it's like, I've got my cargo, you've got your cargo. And it's like the, it's the stuff we carry every day is that idea I think that you're getting to is like, this is just the stuff that's always with you or always on you. It's in your rucksack, it's in your cargo pants or whatever. Like it's your stuff that you've
Ryan: It's your responsibilities.
Bryan: your responsibility.
And so I think it's helpful, like what you're bringing out there is this distinction between, somebody else is gonna have their own burdens, like a crushing, extraordinary load that they're dealing with and I'll help you with that, but I can't cause that to become my load, my rucksack, my standard everyday thing that I carry, because I've also got my stuff and you're also responsible for carrying your things.
So maybe it is one of those things where like, I'll help you move, but I'm not gonna help you move every day of your life.
Ryan: Yeah. And he—this context is so powerful of Galatians 6. I mean, we won't go into all of it, but he says, "Keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted." Like, you know, if anybody thinks he's something when he's nothing, he deceives himself. You need to know while you are restoring the ones that are caught in transgression that you too can be—can fall, and you have to focus first on your load and then carry each other's burdens.
And then in verse 7 he says that whatever you sow, you're also going to reap. And that's a basic Bible principle is consequence. There are consequences to what we do.
Bryan: And really, you can just tie that right into Philippians 2 as Paul's talking about making sure that you are looking not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. It's important that we do both. that's I think where we get into a deeper conversation here as we compare these things too.
The Importance of Discernment
Bryan: And it's like, wow, how much discernment is needed to say, what time is it right for
Ryan: earlier in Philippians 1.9, Paul said, "I'm praying that your love may keep growing in all discernment and then become fruitful." So it's not just love. It's love with discernment about how do we wisely and skillfully love others. And all of this comes back to the second greatest commandment, the greatest commandment and the second greatest commandment.
We love God with all of ourselves. We're pouring that up, and he refills us as we love him with everything. And we love our neighbor as ourselves. And so that idea in Philippians 2.4 that you brought up, look not only to your own interests but also to the interests of others. Consider others significant, more significant than yourself.
Don't think you're this ultimate important person. They need to be prioritized. Like, you know, like we always say, keep reading to the next verse. You are still looking out for your what's important, what's necessary for you, your own interests in verse 4. You know, you need to take care of your wife before you go and take care of somebody else's wife.
You know, you need to take care of your kids and your spiritual well-being and your physical well-being to go back to the Elijah lesson. So that you can keep holding up others and building others up. The command of the second greatest commandment isn't love yourself. That's not the command part, but that's the standard that we're trying to love others just as much as we love ourselves.
you know, you usually will feed yourself. Sometimes people stop doing it, and that's not good. And we recognize, look, you got to take care of yourself. but love others as you do.
I want other people also to feed themselves and to have food to eat and to have sleep and to have, more importantly, spiritual well-being. And so seeking all of these things for others as we seek to also be a good place ourselves. And so it's this constant, you know, like you said, I love the words you started with.
It's complicated. Mmm.
Bryan: Well, it is, right? Because on the surface, if it was just based on my actions, I think it would be difficult for me to figure out why I'm really doing what I'm doing. Because sometimes I'll say no for a healthy reason, and sometimes I'll say no for an unhealthy reason. And that no might sound the same, it might come out with exactly the same language and the same intention, the same sort of like emotional context with it, but behind the scenes, am I doing it out of love or am I doing it because of selfishness?
And no one may see that except for me and obviously God, but boy, have I ever used a no as a way of just being selfish or have I ever used a no completely as purely a tool for love for somebody? There are times where I've probably done both of those and it's real hard for me sometimes to like draw the line.
It's like, why am I saying no right now? And is it because I'm loving people or is it because I'm really just sick and tired and I want my space, right? I don't wanna have that tough conversation with somebody, I'm avoiding it or I don't wanna be inconvenienced by something or I just wanna be comfortable is a real easy way of saying no, but am I saying no for a different reason?
Yeah, easy quote unquote, of
Ryan: Well, no, I mean, it's so annoying, isn't it, that there are no easy answers? That like we want silver bullets, but discernment, the whole idea of discernment is there is no here. Now I've solved it. Just do this. Right. You know, like discernment and wisdom says, look, you're going to need to hold all of these different principles and think carefully and prayerfully with the right direction towards God and towards God.
And towards others, the right focus and aim and then choose well. And each circumstance is going to take a different response. And so boundaries isn't the quote unquote answer. Right. But it is part of the conversation. I think we could see boundaries get abused, like you're saying about using a no in the wrong way to be selfish.
You could say, well, I've got to set boundaries. Bryan and Ryan said boundaries are important. So I'm not going to be involved in the church anymore because I am setting a limit. They're just bullying me by saying you should show up to services and get involved and find a place to use your gifts. No, that's not a boundary that's healthy.
That's a boundary that's like marking off the wrong thing. And so it's like God defined boundaries by thinking about what is God's will and letting him help us to think through what those lines should be. How do you think the idea of boundaries could get abused maybe in other ways than what I just
Challenges of Setting Boundaries
Bryan: feel like that's really deeply connecting with me on a lot of levels 'cause there are times where I will have to say no because of the season of life that I'm in. And I think when you're asking about abusing boundaries, it's throwing up a 10 foot brick wall in somebody's face and saying, no, I'll never do that versus throwing up like a nice little curated fence with a gate in it that says like, it's not time for this now, but I'll open the gate at some point when I'm ready.
Like, I feel like when we don't, maybe this is like, go grab my Birkenstocks again, but like I'm thinking about here my view of seasons of life really should color my responses in this conversation. what is it time for now? How is my life working in a way that would either make this yes just be completely debilitating for me or make this yes actually a negative thing for my life?
Or, you know, is the time of my life, is the season of my life such that I have space, I have margin, I have the ability to be able to take this on without it becoming negative in any way to me? Like, I feel like that's probably a, if you're not viewing it from the lens of the season of your life and where you are, then maybe that's a way boundaries can get abused.
And maybe if, like I said, if you're ever feeling like you're just completely throwing up a 10 foot brick wall and stonewalling everyone away, that might be another way that boundaries can get abused.
Ryan: boundaries don't mean walling off and not sharing what's going on with you. They don't mean pushing people away. Now, there might be certain people that you need to really push back that line further with and other people that you let closer. You know, we are whenever there are the wrong kind of people in our lives, they will pull us down.
And that's part of the idea of boundaries is to be separate in important ways, not to be isolated, not to be Pharisees. The idea of a Pharisee is to be, you know, is the word Pharisee has to do with separation, not to be like I am withdrawing myself from the world. If anybody's a sinner, then I'm not going to connect with them.
That's not what Jesus did. But it is to say there is going to be a line here of how much I let them in to influence me or influence my kids or whatever. So that there's that. But yeah, the idea of like I am saying that there is a time for everything. That's just another one of those wisdom principles to fold in.
And it makes me think about Jesus pruning good things in John 15 too. Right? How does pruning good things lead to increased fruitfulness?
Bryan: yeah. I mean, you're not just like, he's not talking about taking away things that are dead or broken or not working. He's talking about taking things away that seem to be alive in those verses so that they can become even more alive. And, you know, this is really the challenge of like saying no to a good thing.
Easy to say no to bad things. Well, I said that. There I go again.
Ryan: We've got to be careful with our easy, but it's true. Yeah, it's easier. It's more obvious that that's a good
Bryan: There's more of a reason to say no to bad things, but it is really hard to say no to good things, especially as other people are shaking their pom poms for the good things and the good things are being talked about on social media or the good things are like, you know, the big pushes that you're doing in your community group at church or something like that.
It's like, boy, for me to say no to that almost makes me seem like the outlier right now. But again, taking away a good thing may actually be a way of opening you up to more good things. And I don't know, like, I feel like for me, can we get into a conversation about why we just feel like we have no physical limits to ourselves?
This goes back to the burnout conversation we had, but why is it that I just can't say no to some things? And for me, one of the big reasons is people pleasing. It is like the idol of approval, thinking that, you know,
Ryan: The golden pat on the back. Right? We talked about that back
Bryan: to that one. Yeah, we've got this ideal that like people are gonna be mad at us if we say no, we're gonna disappoint them.
And my value, my worth is determined by the way that people view me and their approval of me. And I was just, you know, thinking about Philippians again, when Paul was talking about his accomplishments, his achievements, and how he just counted all of them as trash and rubbish because of the cause of knowing Christ.
Like he laid down a lot of very good things so that he could know Jesus. And of course, in all of those things, he was getting people who didn't appreciate that, probably even, like we don't talk about Paul's parents very much, but can you imagine what Paul's parents would have said about their little precious boy turning their backs on the Jewish faith?
Not that he did, actually, but from their viewpoint, maybe he would have been. And I just, like I have such a hard time thinking about that because you're laying aside good things because you're so interested in what people think of you.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, Paul talks about this a lot, how he had to. Because it's not just the people he stepped away from whenever he took on the Christian faith and they wouldn't convert. It's even the people he's serving and trying to pour himself into that he's teaching that are constantly. I'm teaching through 2 Corinthians now, and it's all about, you know, he's being misunderstood by these people he loves so much.
And he constantly says, you know, Jesus is the one that I have to answer to. Galatians 110, "Am I seeking the approval of men or of God, or am I trying to please man? If I were trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." Such a powerful and helpful distinction that I've really had to work with in my life.
I'm pleasing others versus serving others by serving Christ.
Bryan: yeah,
Ryan: Right? It's pleasing versus serving and who you're really trying to have the approval of. That can really shift a whole life once a Christian gets that.
Bryan: When I start to think about why I might push myself to the limit, I not only think about approval, but I think about the idea that like, well, if I can't, if I don't do it, no one will, or who will, if I'm not the one to do it? And there's like that pride that shows up that like, apparently I'm the only one capable of doing this job.
And boy, if that is not my real life inner monologue, sometimes like I, I struggle with that, right? I have a hard time with thinking that, I mean, other people can do this the way that I will, and I've come to learn that like, and I am still learning, but like I am trying to learn that is not the case. And in order for people to grow, like I have to give things to them and I have to step back so that other people can step in.
But that is another reason why I might justify a way just going to the limit and never saying no to something.
Ryan: Absolutely. Yeah. Boundaries don't just take humility. There's also this sense of accepting that you cannot and should not control everything. Control is a big idea, right? Like, I'm not going to control the outcome. I'm not going to control what other people are doing. I'm not going to control how they're feeling.
I'm not going to be able to control any of these things, and they're not going to be able to control me. I need to be under the lordship of Christ. You know, in that way, his love is constraining me.
Boundaries and Freedom
Ryan: But boundaries are really about freedom. They really are. Because once God marks out the boundaries, then we can be free within them.
It's like, go back to the garden, and he says, "You may eat of any tree except for this one." So it's like, all and whatnot. These are the boundaries. And constantly, there's that idea of, like, we need to know what the appropriate limits are so that we can be free within
Armchair Quarterback Situations
Ryan: them.
Ryan: Okay. So with all of this, all these great principles we're laying out here and challenging ideas, let me throw some armchair quarterback situations you
Bryan: Any excuse to use that stinger? -
Handling Emotional Reactions to Missed Events
Bryan: Please feel free. - Armchair quarterback away, I am prepared.
Ryan: Okay. First one. A friend is upset because you couldn't make their event. And so you apologize, and then you apologize again, but they're still being cold towards you. And you feel like, "I've got to keep over-explaining," even though you didn't actually do anything wrong, and you've tried to make it right.
So what's happening emotionally with this? You know, somebody isn't accepting your no, maybe. And then how do we deal with that?
Bryan: To say that this is my real life today would be an understatement. Thank you for bringing my armchair quarterback moment to light here.
Ryan: That might have been
Bryan: Oh boy, well, you know, it's fascinating how we, like you said, we have such a difficulty with letting go of control. And it feels like we're out of control when we stop trying to control other people or other situations.
And I think there is originally nothing to be sorry for. Now, a sorry or an explanation can come in different ways, think in that case, you should have said you're sorry in the first place. Maybe some would disagree with me. This is a hypothetical scenario anyway, but like to be able to say, no, I can't make your event, I'm sorry, I don't I don't exactly think that there's anything to be sorry for there first of all. But secondly, like if this person is probably upset with you or guilting you into something, or like if they're treating you differently because you can't go, that says a lot to me about why they asked you to be there in the first place.
And that seems, it seems interesting to me that that person would not open up and understand why you are not able to make it. Now, of course, a lot of the responses here will go back to that great parable of the wedding feast and the master inviting all of these people to come and join him at the wedding feast and they have all these excuses.
And I love to bring it up in explanations to people. I'll say, you know, I've bought an oxen and I've got to go attend to it. Like as joking, jokingly sometimes to people. But I think that parable, well, first of all, is not talking about getting invited to a party, number one. Number two, I think that parable sort of colors our view of how people respond when they're invited to something and how negative that can be.
And I don't know, I feel like maybe the right response is I know why I'm saying no. And to offer whatever level of explanation, if any, is appropriate for the situation. But I don't think I'd say sorry for it.
The Importance of Honest Communication in Relationships
Ryan: That's helpful. I think that's an insightful response that makes me think of this quote that I used to— when I was in high school, I had this poster board that every time I heard a quote that was like, "Whoa, I want that to guide, help me with my life," I would write it
Bryan: Can I just say, I'm gonna interrupt you. Can I just say, that is exactly the backstory that I have imagined in my head about you with quotes. Like you're a quote man. I can totally now understand a new level of Ryan Joy understanding that you wrote quotes on a poster board in high school like that. Okay, go
Ryan: Oh, man. Yes. I'm still this kind of person. But yeah, there was one from Jules Renard that said, "The only man who is really free is the one who can turn down an invitation to dinner without giving an excuse."
Bryan: yes,
Ryan: I just thought, "Whoa." Like, that connected with me and with your, like, you know, you don't need to apologize, because that says you're doing something wrong.
And to bring it to Jesus and Jesus' statements, you know, let your yes be yes and your no be no. In other words, you know, not only be truthful to it, but let it have integrity. Let yes mean yes. It's a commitment. And let no mean no. It's a commitment. And it's simple. And you don't need to try to affect or control how someone feels about your yes and no.
You make the best decision you can and say yes and
Bryan: I think another powerful one here as I'm even thinking about this is like, not that you don't make an explanation, 'cause sometimes I think there's a delicate line here when we do say no, and let me just acknowledge it. If I were to say no and completely be like, I can't, I'm too busy, just stop asking me, I don't wanna go, like that isn't a defensive and selfish sort of response to that kind of request, right?
It's not loving, it does not exude the fruit of the spirit in any way. But I do think there is a response you could give that does not make an excuse for something and does not apologize for it, but just is honest and real about you in that moment. And maybe that's the response, depending on who's asking you and your level of connection with them that you might wanna give.
Like, look, I care too much about you to not give you this answer, so let me tell you what's going on. I've realized that I just don't have the space for this right now. There's too much going on in my life, and I know, and I'm trying to be more honest about my limits with myself, and I know if I commit to that, then I'm just going to regret it in the end, and I appreciate the offer, but I'm gonna have to say no.
Something like that is much different than the no you might give out of frustration and anger. So maybe that's another helpful tack-on to that
Ryan: Okay.
Navigating Marital Disagreements
Ryan: Let me give you another one. All right? So this is a marriage one. You and your spouse, you and Sharilyn, disagree about shared chores and how you work it out and you keep getting loaded up. Okay. You disagree about how to handle quiet hours at night and what you're going to do for the, you know, you need some time to shut down at night or something.
There's a disagreement. I don't know what it would be in your marriage. And I'm not trying to diagnose it to your marriage, but let's imagine a scenario where, yeah, this is—there's like a disagreement about, like, you're saying, "I do all of this. This is what I need help with," or something. And you just keep letting it slide.
But you're quietly frustrated. So, you know, what happens when you're being silent to masquerade? It's like pretending it's peace, but it's really not
Bryan: is no peace, yeah.
Ryan: there is no peace.
Bryan: Yeah, so, boy, I mean, again, are you just on a wall, standing in a corner in my house, just watching? Have you tapped into my Nest cameras in my home? Yeah,
Ryan: it's a little creepy, but I've been—no,
Bryan: after the AI episode, I'm not surprised by anything, but I feel like that is one of those things that we, even after 20-some-odd years of being married, are still working through, and for me, I struggle with that as well.
wanting to, and you used the word martyr complex, which maybe if that felt like it came out of the blue, maybe is coming in more stark relief at this point for some people, 'cause when I heard you say that, I was like, oh, gotcha, I know where he's going with that, but that's really the idea here, is you're wanting to kinda step back and be quiet so that you don't offend somebody, maybe, but you also realize that maybe it's a selfish reason for being quiet 'cause you're just frustrated and things are going on inside.
We have found, and we're not perfect at this by any stretch of the imagination, but we've found that it's helpful to hold it as long as it needs to be held to keep it from coming out in a way that's frustrating or overly charged with emotion, and to find a moment after whatever has happened has happened where it's a little bit quiet, things are, it's the correct time for that discussion, and bring it up in that forum in a way that everyone's been able to breathe about it and there's not a lot of, so I think there's a balance there, where you do wanna say, I don't wanna just wall off and just say, that's your chore and this is my chore, that's the way you do it and that's the way I do it.
I want to make sure that we're both understood and that we've come to some discussion about it, that we've come to an agreement about it, and you're using the marriage example. I feel like that is the time where you don't let stuff like that just kinda slide because it will absolutely grow, and yeah, finding moments that are good conversation points, touchstones to check in on that kinda stuff is helpful.
We don't do it as often as we could and should, but it is something I think is, don't set and let something boil
Ryan: it's a perfect example of the kind of delicate, complicated things we were talking about, about, like, who are you wanting to sacrifice for more than your spouse? You want to love them. You want to give to them. You know, it's not like—there's no chore that I wouldn't do over and over again for, you know, for Adrienne if that's where we end up.
But you have to be talking and figuring it out together, speaking the truth in love, as Ephesians says. You know, Adrienne and I have this thing that we came up with years ago. It's like the simplest thing, and we tell it to couples sometimes. It sounds maybe dumb, but a game changer for us was when, I don't know, 18 years ago, we figured out to give a number to things, like 1 to 10, what are you for the dishes being something that you manage all the time?
You know, or 1 to 10, even like what restaurant do you want to do? Because, you know, at one point, Adrienne said to me, "You know, this has been bothering me for years, and I don't know why I've never said it, but I never get to choose the pizza I want." And it's like, what a simple thing. Like, I always want you to get the pizza you want.
I just didn't know that there was a thing that was important to you. And so, like, speaking up matters. It's not selfish. It's not about that. It's about we want to take care of each other. So it lets me be giving to her.
Bryan: and it really is, like I think going back to what I was saying and putting that together with what you're saying there, there is a difference between talking it out and being open with each other and complaining, and it's not to say that because we talk through something, it's just us having a gripe session about all the things we don't like about each other, but it is, in a way, coming to a place where we're having this conversation to achieve something beyond it.
Like we're trying to grow past it or work through something in a way that's meaningful, and again, I've got my Birkenstocks completely on here at this point, but I feel like the more we view the end goal of relationships as growth and love and pushing forward in that way, just figuring out more and more ways to abound in love for each other, you're gonna talk about stuff, you're gonna deal with that stuff, you're not gonna sweep it under the rug and pretend like it doesn't exist.
Like if it really does bother you that you don't get to choose pineapple and pepperoni, like talk, bring it on, let's go. I love that, it's a great example.
Ryan: Yeah.
Dealing with Overbearing Coworkers
Ryan: Let me give you one more quick one. We'll do this quick. This is just to give a different kind of angle on it.
So this is at work. A coworker corners you every morning and just wants to, you talked about complaining, just wants to vent everything. And it's a point where now you just are finding it totally draining.
You don't want to seem uncaring. You want to be a good coworker. You want to be a Christian light in the workplace and be loving. But what's your role here, you know, and what should you do? Are you a comforter? Are you a counselor? Are you like a prisoner of their complaints? And when does empathy, I guess, become
Bryan: Yeah, I mean, that's a deep one and a big one for sure. Let's just say at my job, none of us have feelings, and so that's not really a problem. We're a bunch of engineers and we don't care, we don't have to talk to each other, we typically do not relate with each other in that way. So I will say though, there are times where I will have coworkers who come my way and they wanna stand in my office and talk and talk and talk and they wanna complain and they wanna gripe about stuff, and I'm not their counselor, I'm not trying to help them work through anything on their own, I can model my responses to them.
This is gonna sound manipulative, but here's what I do. As they stand in my office, I stand up, actually, I have a standing desk anyway, so I'm already standing. So they come in and they talk to me, I'm standing up, and as we're talking and I realized that they are not gonna stop, I walk out of my office and with them down the hallway, and we take a walk down the hallway, and then I walk to their desk, and they naturally, when I walk to their desk, they naturally sit down because that's where their desk is and that's where they sit.
So they sit down and then I wrap up the conversation and I leave, and that's like, I've walked them back to their desk and now they're no longer in my office and hopefully they've felt heard as we talked, but now they get a chance to, I basically plant them back at their own desk. And again, it sounds very manipulative, but that's my approach to dealing with people in my office.
But I don't know, I'm not going to say, "No, don't talk to me about that stuff," but it does get grating after a while, so I kind of have to end it in the most maybe subtle way possible,
Ryan: ending it and sometimes finding a kind, you know, way, if you can, a gentle way to end things, you know, or you could get stuck in like a text thread where everybody is doing that kind of thing sometimes. And like, how do you remove yourself without like expressing to them, you guys are so out of line. I mean, sometimes you do need to say that, right.
And that's a part of speaking the truth in love sometimes means convicting people. And sometimes we want to do it gently. And other times it's like you've got to be straight with people.
the worst thing to feel is to realize after the fact that you were overstepping something and nobody ever said anything to you, you know.
And
Bryan: on his face, it's like, "Why didn't you tell me that? "Come on now."
Ryan: yeah, well, I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to make you feel bad. Well, make me feel bad. I would rather, you know, correct that. And so, you know, sometimes you just have to let people know more forcefully than you otherwise would.
But there's so much to this conversation, of course. And there's so many different layers to having a line, having limits, you know, separating ourselves from sin. But also in these more delicate things, finding the place where I need to end my feelings.
And you quoted a while back, Sharilyn saying, "These are your feelings and these are my feelings." And, you know, that's a part of this,
Bryan: Yeah. Well, I said earlier in the episode that this is complicated. It is also uncomfortable. If there's anything I'm getting out of these armchair quarterback scenarios, boy,
Jesus' Approach to Boundaries and Service
Bryan: it's not comfortable to have these conversations, but super necessary, I think.
Bryan: so. So we've kicked it around a little bit, but we've never actually tackled it. So let's kind of talk about this and wrap up this discussion talking about Jesus. How did Jesus handle these moments? I mean, if there's anybody who felt the burden of service and of saying yes to people and of being there to completely give his life a sacrifice for others, it would have been Jesus.
So the modeling ourselves after him is gonna be super important. There's these two verses that I think we wanna tackle here in this conversation. Mark 1, verses 35 through 38, talks about Jesus in this relationship that he had with people. It says that he was rising early in the morning. While it was still dark, he departed and went out to a desolate place there and he prayed.
And Simon and those who were with him, they were searching for him and they found him, said to him, "Everyone is looking for you." And he said to them, "Let us go to the next towns that I may preach to there also, for that is why I came out." Like this wonderful moment that we sometimes reference here in conversations like this about Jesus going out to be alone, to be by himself.
But of course he didn't stay out there. He made it his mission to come back and when everyone was looking for him to go out and to continue on his work. And that was one example. I think the other one is in Luke 5.
Ryan: I can read that if you want. 15 to 16. "But now even more, the report about him went abroad and great crowds gathered to hear him "And to be healed of their infirmities. But he would withdraw to desolate places and pray." So both of these have this context that it's creating, helping us to see this picture of everybody wants a piece of Jesus.
Everybody needs to hear from him. Everybody needs healed. There is so much happening all around him and so much so that the disciples come and it almost sounds like they're yelling at him when they say, "Everyone is looking for you!" And like just almost like guilting him.
"The crowds need your help!" And they did. They need his teaching and his healing. But he disappears and he goes off by himself to rest and pray. That seems selfish, but Jesus isn't selfish. And of course, we know that it actually doesn't seem selfish. It makes perfect sense. But how would Jesus counsel us if we were feeling guilty about stepping back and saying, "Okay, I have served some, you know, I've done some service for people or I'm going to serve people later.
But right now I need to do this other stuff. Do like the Elijah stuff, right? And pray and recover."
Bryan: does not in this moment, which I appreciate very much. It kind of goes back to what I was saying in the armchair quarterback segment. He does not apologize for being alone. When they, like you said, they're panicked, they come out, they're like, "Hey, where are you at? Where have you been? Everyone is looking for you."
And he doesn't say, "I'm so sorry." He just says, "All right, let's go. Let's go do it." And he moves on. It's the, he has nothing to apologize for. And in that moment, I think he's teaching us, like, I have a mission. I have not forgot about my mission. This was a pit stop and it was part of that mission. It's like, it reminds me of going on a road trip.
It's like, we're headed to Disneyland. We're headed to California. We're driving down I-10 to get there. But you know, I am not capable of making it six hours in the car without stopping at least once along the way. So I'm going to stop, but I'm still headed that direction. So, and I'm not apologizing for stopping.
I need to use the bathroom. Like, of course, that's not what's going on here in this story, but like a relatable example. It's like, why am I apologizing? Why would I apologize for something that just makes so much sense? I have to recharge. I have to be alone right now. And you know, we're in an environment now where we've got introverts and extroverts clearly defined.
You know, social media, you read all about, look at people on posting about their social battery. And boy, I feel that. Like, my social battery will absolutely get zapped at some moment and I need to go recharge. And I'm not throwing anybody under the bus for that. think that anyone should apologize for needing to go find a spot to just regroup a little bit.
Ryan: That's a really good connection, the social battery. And yeah, I love your analogy there. I love the road trip idea. Like, I mean, our cars need gas to refuel and we also need to refuel continually because sometimes you're just running on empty. And, you know, to take it a step further from Jesus, it's not, he's not, you know, going and refueling by scrolling Instagram or doing, you know, like, obviously the way that you refuel matters.
And so that's a part of this, but we have to still set boundaries to do that. It's the, you know, I quote it all the time. Here's back to my poster board of quotes that to do this work of transformation with people, you have to be healthier than all the world is sick.
And so it takes work for us to look to ourselves before God and fill up so that then we can
Bryan: yeah. How you refuel matters is a really helpful one in this conversation because the tendency is for people to see you withdraw. And if they don't know you, if they don't have a good sense of who you are, maybe they think that you just don't care. Or maybe they think that you're being lazy or that you're not pushing enough.
And again, if you're gonna define your choices and your decisions by what people think of you, be prepared because if people don't know you, they're going to assume things about you. And I can just imagine how many people were assuming things about Jesus in this moment. And I'm sure he had to deal with people jumping to conclusions about his choices, knowing or not knowing him well enough maybe to know that he was out there by himself praying, being with the Father, recharging in those really helpful ways.
boy, just keeps getting real, right? Misunderstanding, being misunderstood is so hard. And it's not just the people that don't know you. When it's really hard is when the people that know you are misunderstanding yourself. And again, 2 Corinthians, Paul's like loves these people. They know him. He has, he converted them and, and like people are bad mouthing him.
Ryan: And he's in this really complicated place of he doesn't really want to spend all this time talking about himself and defending himself and, and explaining himself.
But at some point you just have to be at peace with God knows.
Bryan: God knows. And I'm okay that God knows while other people are disappointed. It is just one of, I think we're landing in a really happy spot here of disappointment and it's complicated. Again, boundaries are complicated and they're so necessary. They're so important. And again, like you touched on it, they're so freeing. Without boundaries, we would be completely a mess. We would just, I mean, technically our clothing, our boundaries, our houses, our boundaries, like we love boundaries.
We appreciate boundaries. We need them. But at the same time, like sometimes putting up boundaries can feel really uncomfortable in a world that just wants every little piece of us all the time.
Ryan: Yeah.
The Wisdom of Setting Boundaries
Ryan: Can I throw a challenge out there for everybody? So this week, watch for that unwise yes that should be a no, should be a gentle no or a clear no. Ask yourself, what am I truly responsible for? What am I simply trying to control? What am I stepping into that isn't mine to do? And just try to carry your burden, bear one another's burdens, but focus on carrying your load.
and, you know, let this, this principle be just one more principle in the constellation of Bible truths that help us to walk wisely before
Bryan: It is. I think if we've come to anything in this episode, it is all about wisdom. And you cannot have a healthy, sound, productive life without being wise in the way that you live. And this is where our world just gets totally wrapped around the axles. And I think it's one of the reasons why we can stand out as lights in the world.
When we have a kind of peace where everyone else is just chasing, chasing, chasing, and trying to be people pleasers and everything else, we can exude a kind of peace that only comes by following the wisdom made real in our lives. That's Jesus.
Ryan: The wisdom made real that is Jesus. That's, that's awesome. He is the wisdom of God. He is the foolishness of God. That's wiser than men. And he will save us in the end. That's what a, what a great place to
Bryan: Cool. Well, this has been a really good conversation. Hopefully everyone have strapped on their Birkenstocks with us, and we've really appreciated this thread through the season. I think maybe we can lay this one aside for a little bit as we move on. If there's more questions about boundaries, about burnout, about all kinds of like stuff that we really face, please reach out to us on our website, send us a message and say, "Hey, you haven't talked about this.
I'd really like to know what you have to say about whatever topic you're interested in." We'd love that and appreciate it.
Conclusion and Upcoming Topics
Bryan: On our next episode, we're going to talk about gratitude. It is the season for gratitude, and we're gonna have a little baby episode all about gratitude and how excited we are about the blessings of the Lord.
We're looking forward to that. And until next episode, everyone, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
Ryan: Shalom.