Snakes and Dragons

PODCAST
Written By Ryan Joy & Bryan Schiele
 

253 | “Oh, It’s About Snakes”

Unmask the Dragon

Geektober continues! If the Bible were a fantasy novel, it'd have it all: a talking serpent, a multi-headed sea monster, and a great dragon at the end. But this isn't fiction, so what's with all the hissing and fire-breathing? How did biblical writers "flip the script" on ancient myths to tell the true story of chaos? And how is the entire Bible one epic dragonslayer story pointing to Christ's ultimate victory over evil? Grab your sword of the Spirit and join our quest to understand one of Scripture's most powerful symbols.

Takeaways

The Big Idea: The Bible uses snakes and dragons to help us see God's epic victory over evil.

This Week's Challenge: Memorize Romans 16:20.

  • Ryan: and really, it's not about snakes, you know, like the real, actual creature of snakes. Right.

    Introduction and Welcome

    Bryan: Well. Hello everyone and welcome to the Bible geeks podcast. This is episode 253 I'm Bryan Schiele. I'm a writer and a poet and I'm a writer and a poet I'm Bryan Schiele

    Ryan: I'm Ryan Joy.

    Bryan: and thanks so much everyone for tuning in today in our second geektober episode if the Bible were a fantasy novel It would have everything it would have a garden a serpent sea monsters and a dragon waiting at the end But this isn't fiction.

    So what does God want us to take from all this slithering hissing and fire-breathing imagery?

    Ryan: They form one of Scripture's most powerful symbols for evil and the hero who defeats it. So in this episode, we'll geek out on snakes, dragons, and sea monsters in the Bible to try and understand their biblical context and meaning. And together, we'll see Scripture's unfolding epic story of Christ's triumph over evil.

    Bryan: I am not even prepared for this one. Are you ready

    Ryan: I am so ready to go. I'll take you there, Bryan.

    Bryan: go.

    The Allure of Dragons

    Ryan: So have I ever told you about how obsessed one year old Anna was with the phantasmic dragon at Disneyland? So there's this dragon, animatronic dragon, that is fire breathing. It actually burned down right before we went back to Disneyland a couple years ago. Yeah, and it hasn't been replaced, but it used to be this big mechanical giant fire breathing dragon that Mickey would use a sword and he would defeat.

    It was probably like Maleficent, I think. But she was so enamored in a way that I had never seen her be enamored. She was probably getting close, you know, she was a toddler. And she would sit on my shoulders and just talk nonstop about the dragon in her very limited speech. And it was the first indication, the first realization I had about how powerful this idea of dragons are in our psyche.

    She didn't know any of the great stories about Smog or King Arthur or, you know, Asian dragons or anything like that. She just instantly fell in love with it. So that is my on-ramp onto thinking, wow, there is something to this dragon thing that is not just in the Bible, not just cultural, but maybe it's innate.

    Yeah dragons I I do believe are pretty amazing And it's it's interesting and weird that we're here in this geektober episode thinking about snakes and dragons And you brought this topic to the show and I'm like okay that sounds interesting and But now now that you're kind of explaining the the allure of these things to even young kids It is kind of just opening my eyes to like oh Maybe the Bible's doing something interesting here when it's talking about these Snakes and dragons and all these things throughout the Bible

    Snakes and Serpents in the Bible

    Ryan: Well, they're everywhere in the Bible. I mean, they show up in strategic moments, but in really important roles that are somewhat consistent in the way that they show up. And why is it that these creatures keep showing up this way?

    And then you get to the end of the Bible and the great enemy is a dragon, and it's identified who that dragon is, which we'll get into. And you start to see that this whole thing has been unveiling the story of Christ as the hero of history and the battle between good and evil, between God's rule and the chaos that wants to come in and steal it away.

    Bryan: isn't it interesting how some things just come together in weird ways like we were Prepping for this episode and thinking about snakes and dragons And I open up Facebook like two days ago and Hal Hammons has a post on his Facebook page Asking people what they think about snakes, and I'm like what is happening here.

    Are you like in my brain?

    Ryan: He's reading our show

    Bryan: He's reading our show notes like what is happening here, and then I'm like okay. I mean game on let's talk about snakes Like why are snakes such a big deal the question? I think he was asking though there was do you have a story about snakes in real life? And I answered that story, and I think I've shared it here on the show before But I don't know if you remember on our anniversary when Sharilyn and I were out at a resort there was a snake that ran across the path in the middle of the night when we were walking to the pool just the way that I am of course the chivalrous man I am I pushed her into the snake as I ran the other direction

    Ryan: man, I remember now.

    Bryan: and I am still married to this day Having had done that that was a that was embarrassing, but not really snakes biggest fan in real life.

    What about you?

    Ryan: Oh, yeah. You know, there is such a difference between seeing snakes on the other side of a glass partition in the zoo versus when you're walking on a hiking trail and when slithers under your feet. It's like it's a different thing altogether.

    So how do we take that and go from these very real animals that we are not so sure how we feel about into the symbols and the spiritual forces in the Bible that are represented by these figures?

    Here's the Story: Chaos Creatures and Ancient Myths

    Ryan: How do we understand the story of dragons in the

    Bryan: well it sounds like that'd be an awesome time here for a next segment Which is called here's the story

    all right, so we're going from you know a really quick sort of overview I suppose of the Bible's use of Serpents and dragons, and I guess if you really want to sum it up the Bible is one long Dragonslayer story is that accurate

    Ryan: Yeah. God is in battle, but the result is never really in question. He is going to conquer and slay the dragon.

    Bryan: back in Genesis 3 This is where we first see our first snake of course, and that's the one we're all thinking about the Nakash This is the the shining talking slithering serpent figure in the garden

    Ryan: you know, we read Genesis 3 with the context of the whole Bible, right? I've read Revelation 12. I know who that guy was. But when it's first being written, whenever its first readers are reading about it, you see this talking snake that is opposing God,

    And you're just wondering, who is this guy? What is going on here?

    Bryan: yeah real head-scratcher for sure what is this snake all about yeah?

    Ryan: And the rest of the Bible slowly unfolds and unmasks his identity. And so we go

    Bryan: from there into the references to these creatures like Leviathan and Rahab.

    Ryan: And in Isaiah 27, He is Leviathan, and he is this beast that is going to be conquered by the sword of God. And so you're starting to see, this is about something more than just, again, than just animals, right?

    Yeah,

    Bryan: When we get to Psalm 74, Leviathan is brought up there, but he's talking about leading Israel out of Egypt, and he says in verse 13, "You divided the sea by your might. You broke the heads of the sea monsters on the water."

    Ryan: So you got like a multi-headed group of sea monsters, and you crushed the heads of Leviathan. So singular Leviathan, but it's a multi-headed Leviathan here, and you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. And I just highlight that to say, you know, it's not talking about dinosaurs or something here.

    Here it's representative of a force that God is conquering. And we see several places that these chaos symbols are representative of nations and powers in the world that are opposing God, like Egypt. And maybe that's the next place to go on this tour is being aware that in places like Ezekiel 29, verse 3, Ezekiel 32, verse 2, here I am bringing us back to Ezekiel, Egypt and the Pharaoh are this dragon that is living in the Nile.

    It's like the ultimate crocodile, but it's not like just a crocodile that you would see, again, in nature. It's this massive beast that is going to be pulled out, and God is going to defeat it and put the carcass out there for all the animals to eat.

    And so these symbols start to become very useful in helping our imagination that we already talked about can be lit up by this visceral response to these mighty serpents to understand them as representing powers that are opposing God.

    The Dragon Slayer Story

    Bryan: okay, so what I'm hearing you talk about here is less about these as like Oh look at these cool references to you know fun crazy Terrifying beasts in the Old Testament, and you're looking at these as a deeper connection to something else you use the term Chaos creature or like chaos monster like explain that to me so that I'm on track with what you're talking about here because I'm looking At some of these and I'm I'm seeing a connection But I want to understand really like lay it out there in pigs and bunnies for

    Ryan: yeah, so chaos is like an important idea in the ancient Near East, where the Bible and all the Israel's neighbors and in Israel, the idea of not just evil, moral evil, but also taking God's good ordered world and bringing things like disease and death and unfruitfulness and the things that take away the ability for land to produce and feed people.

    You know, these kinds of things where the ordered fruitfulness and morality under God's good rule is being thwarted. And so that's chaos. And then when I talk about chaos creatures, there are a lot of stories, not true stories, not stories that Israel's prophets are saying had any truth, but stories that all of Israel's neighbors and the Israelites themselves were aware of.

    The Babylonian creation epic has this creature, Tiamat, which represented chaos and untamed waters and a threat to order and was defeated by Marduk. And there are Egyptian myths that do the same thing and Ugaritic Canaanite myths that do the same thing as Baal is defeating this seven headed sea serpent dragon.

    And so I know we're getting really weird and really nerdy here,

    Bryan: love it keep it going

    Ryan: but it's really important for us to have, we've talked before about if we want to understand the Bible, we need to start by understanding it in its original context. What did the original author and the original recipients understand about this?

    Because that's who God was directly communicating to.

    And then, that they've got these big giant chaotic monsters these giant serpents dragons Whatever we're talking about here when the Bible's using this language These people who were hearing the prophetic words of God through these prophets were were connecting Potentially with stories that they'd heard their neighbors talk about like in Babylon and other places like that like these other Myths these other stories it would be like connecting with I mean I suppose it like like you're talking about on a being you know really interested in the Disneyland dragons right like that has a Cultural significance to it that we would all understand today didn't obviously come from the Bible But like everyone around knows like Maleficent and those kinds of like evil things so these are stories that could potentially Resonate in deeper ways with the hearers because they know these stories from around them

    Exactly. So Israel and God are using these symbols that are just part of the psyche of the world and saying, let me flip that script. You guys have it all wrong. Here's the true story. And yeah, you think of think of C.S. Lewis and the Chronicles of Narnia telling a true story using symbols or, you know, we might even take something like the Big Bang and say God is the Big Bang.

    God created everything. And we're not saying all of the baggage that comes with it. It was created from nothing where there was nothing causing it. We're saying, no, here's the real story. Let me use a pop culture reference or a scientific reference or whatever to tell you, because we all speak the same language here with these idioms, to tell you what really is happening.

    Bryan: that connects Pretty deeply with me as a lover of pop culture and bringing it into any conversation I can find I can definitely see why this would be helpful So I was reading over in Psalm 104 where talking about Leviathan. I've sort of latched on to the Leviathan here I'm holding on for dear life Psalm 104 verse 25 said here is the sea great and wide which teams with creatures innumerable Living things both small and great there go to the ships and Leviathan which you formed to play in it And you know so there he's speaking about God having created The Leviathan to play in the sea that he made and it's almost like the the most Dangerous chaos creature as if we could refer to it that way the most dangerous chaos creature is God's like plaything or he's you know He's calling it to play in what he's created So when you talk about flipping the script you're really saying these amazing intense Scary creatures that you're so terrified of don't worry These are God's plaything and so maybe that's the idea that you're getting at here with with flipping the script and using these cultural References to where you know the this creature in some other mythology might have been Terrifying and all-consuming not even a drop in the bucket compared to God

    Ryan: Well, it's a great reference. And and the idea that this metaphor is not used in one way tells you this is a metaphor. Right. In some cases, this this creature is going to be Egypt or it's going to be Satan or it's going to be something like that that's opposing God. In some cases, it's just something that is inconceivably powerful.

    And yet it's nothing to God. God is taming it and putting it on a leash. And that's kind of that kind of happens in Job, too.

    Everything exists because God is. I mean, even even the forces of darkness, they're not dark because of God, but they exist because of God. And so it helps us to understand the transcendence of God whenever we see that whatever we could think of as the scariest, most chaotic, most mighty thing, whether it's an empire, whether it's the nuclear bomb, you know, whatever we might in our modern culture think of as the scariest, most powerful idea, real or imagined, God is so much greater than it.

    It's all under

    Bryan: that that's helpful to understand that there's opportunities where he's where he's Referencing it and comparing it to different things so it's not always one thing you know we're not always talking about God's Might over this kind of creature But sometimes in reference to its comparison with another nation or some other terrible event that's going on And I think that maybe this is a challenge for me in Approaching the Bible and stories like this because I don't have any connection Necessarily to some of these ancient myths and this old Mythology that the context of the hearers of these things at the at the time these things were written oh by the way the thing you thought you knew about this Let me tell you how God is really in control of it in some deeper ways.

    Ryan: exactly. And we didn't finish that story.

    Jesus as the Ultimate Conqueror

    Ryan: I promised we would read some of Revelation 12, which is the clearest unmasking of the true dragon at the heart of all the behind all the dragons.

    And it says in verse 9, "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent." Now we just connected it back to Genesis 3, "who is called the devil and Satan," or the Satan, "the adversary of God The deceiver of the whole world, he was thrown down to the earth and his angels were thrown down with him."

    And so then we see, ultimately, Jesus in Revelation 19 coming as the conqueror on the white horse, and he has his bride, he's rescuing his bride. I mean, where do all these archetypes of great stories of slaying the dragon, saving the bride, going off and getting married for the hero, everything in my mind, all the great archetypes, all the great stories, point back to the gospel.

    And so, you know, the serpent is more than a zoological, just an animal. We just read in Revelation 12, he's a mouthpiece for this supernatural figure of Satan that is going to be fully unpacked as we go along.

    Bryan: he's a lying mouthpiece and I think you know Why is it if I could just take a slight detour here again? Why is it that we're so like grossed out or weirded out by these kinds of creatures? Do you think that's an accident? Like I kind of feel like we're meant to not be comfortable with whatever You know snakes and potentially big lizards and dragons and things like I think we're meant to be Uncomfortable thinking about these things in a deeper more visceral way I don't know if that's like programmed into us or what but God sure knew what he was doing when when giving us this depiction of this lying

    Ryan: you know, all of this is informing the imagination, and the imagination is telling us not a myth, but using what we instinctively understand about chaos, danger that lurks in the shadows, the places we can't see clearly, you know, represented maybe by all of these other things, the sea and the—

    Deep Thoughts: The Nature of Evil

    Ryan: Why does the sea keep showing up in the storyline of the Bible?

    Why is there no sea in Revelation 21 and 22 when we get to the new heavens and new earth? What is that about? God doesn't like water, everything is land, what's going on? You know, yeah,

    Bryan: it sounds to me like you're asking some very deep

    I Mean if you're talking about the sea what is deeper than the sea?

    Ryan: Let's go to the depths.

    Bryan: you don't want to be out in the deep or in the in the desert because in part scary creatures Like these snakes and dragons.

    Ryan: Yeah, so, and really, it's not about snakes, you know, like the real, actual creature of snakes. Right.

    Bryan: Yeah.

    Ryan: But there's the idea of things that are mysterious, that you can't control, the things that lurk, you know, think of your fears for your child, and the dangers that threaten them, and evil people, and evil powers, and death, and even just the uncontrollable, scary parts of the world.

    And that's what is a part of what is being represented in these things. They're very—it's the very human problems that all of those things are introduced into the world as dangers, as death, as, you know, as things that become moral problems. All of those come from sin.

    And there's a good book that I'll reference in the show notes that I have in my Logos library, where an author emphasizes the two different tactics of Satan as snake tactics and dragon tactics. And the snake tactic he focuses on is deceiving. You said that right from the beginning. He's a liar. And the dragon tactic he focuses on is devouring. Yeah. So, like, lies, and then persecution, and violence, and these two evils that Satan tries to bring into the world to snuff out all the good that God wants to bring.

    Bryan: isn't he doing both of those things? You know, he's he's both the snake and the dragon. He is both the liar and the violent Devourer, which I mean that is again you we are talking about snakes and dragons, but we're not really we're talking about the evil forces We're talking about the things that trip us up like at a at its most basic level We're talking about the things that I'm going to struggle with when I hit stop on the recording here and I go off into my Regular life like that's what we're talking about

    lies are still Constantly being lobbed at me and the threat of violence and persecution are constantly being lobbed at me in my day-to-day life So these are real things.

    Reach Out: The Serpent in Your Life

    Bryan: Yeah, would you want to do that as, like, a reach-out question? Like, where do you see those?

    yeah, let's do it

    Ryan: So, I guess, like, to put that into a question, where do you see the serpent in your life? Where are things deceiving, threatening, overwhelming you, trying to snuff out the light of God and push you into the

    Bryan: I think There's a certain temptation towards comfort which is really odd I think if I were really to envision Satan as the serpent I'm not sure I would entirely be very comfortable around him But he sure does want to provide me with comfort and I guess I get that goes back to his temptations of Jesus in the wilderness Right.

    It was all about comfort like turn this rock here into a big giant piece of bread because you're hungry like be comfortable and as much as I might think that that next purchase on the horizon is gonna make me happy Or if I could only accomplish this one more thing, that's that's not what life is about That's not what joy is about and abiding in Christ is about but that's the reminder I need to bring to myself that he's a liar and I really don't want to snuggle up to a snake.

    Ryan: Yeah, that's quite a picture. [laughing] Yeah,

    the great deception is the answer to life is for you to find comfort and pleasure. That's what I heard in what you were saying. Yeah, that's a really powerful one. Another one is that what you're doing

    is going towards chaos. Like, let's stick with that theme. It is meaningless, and

    it's not going to work, and you can't get it there, and so it's not going to be effective. You know, I just had a conversation, a bunch of conversations this morning, with my wife, who is homeschooling our kids and just really struggling in the last couple days with one of our kids. I won't single them out, and the place that it's leaving us is like, Is this kid going to be okay, and are we doing something wrong? Where do we go astray? And it's like just reminding us of the truth of God's promise and who God is, that they're going to be okay. You know, they are going to face the serpent, and they're going to face lies and pain.

    But at the same time, if we keep shepherding them back to the Lord and pointing them to him, and trusting God and praying to God, there is power there that is going to work out for a good end. And so how do we meet the lies of Satan? How do we meet the discouragement and the chaos? We bring God's wise, ordered, good promise and good word into our lives and place all of our confidence in not only his words, but in him, in who he is, the one we find through those words.

    Bryan: to flip the metaphor ever so slightly first Peter 5 8 be sober minded be watchful your adversary The devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour another chaos animal Resist him firm in the faith knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood around the world Of course, that is a good reminder that chaos is in the world and we just better be watchful for it Better be prayerful about it and we better resist him that I think is the the reminder in in those chaotic Situations is like it's not all hope is not lost You know, it's not time to throw up your hands and give up and boy I've been there man I've been in those moments where it's like, all right, I give in uncle but but yeah I think just being able to resist and put up that shield and understand that God's shield is ultimately more powerful and stronger than Ours ever will be so

    Ryan: So that's a pretty good lead-in to the Jesus end of this snake, so to speak, where he grabs the snake by the tail, spins him around, and conquers him. And so finding Jesus here in the Dragon story, Jesus is the Dragon Slayer, and we see him there back in the thing we talked with Allen about in Genesis 3.15.

    But how does that story kind of start to come to its climax, to its conclusion in

    Bryan: this idea

    the gospel being all the way back here in this earliest story We see the the good news about Jesus crushing the head of the serpent and like

    I need to be kind of careful when I when I think I have more control or more power over Satan than and really I do because he he has the capability of Really inflicting wounds that he even inflicted on Jesus and that was a mean that was quite a wound That was quite a bruise that he gave to Jesus and he's capable of doing so much more to to all of us,

    Ryan: One of the ways of understanding atonement is called Christus Victor, Hebrews 2 talks about how Jesus overcame the devil. 1 John talks about it. The Gospels talk about how he's binding up the strong man.

    and he ultimately is not going to be able to snatch any of us who hold on to Jesus.

    And that is really powerful to remember. This is war, you know, and that's what the dragon and the dragon slayer remind us of. This is war. We stand with the winner, and we are more than conquerors already as long as we hold on to him. Bam, and just hang on. He's my Lord. As long as he's my Lord, his people win.

    Bryan: Can I read Romans 16 verse 20 right now? Cuz I feel like it would be helpful where he talks about the God of peace soon crushing Satan under your feet And I think that kind of ties up a lot of what you were just talking about there you know,

    the head of this beast being crushed under our feet by the victory made possible by Jesus just super amazing

    Ryan: And so that battle continues not just between Christ and Satan, but it's being played out between the agents of Satan and the agents of Christ in the world who are empowered by Christ. And so that prayer there, it's really a blessing in Romans 16.20, is a wonderful thing for us to speak to one another as a promise and a prayer.

    The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

    The Challenge

    Ryan: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, because that is how we will overcome.

    Bryan: mean if you want a challenge just take it on right memorize Romans 16 20 carry it with you Like it's the sword of the spirit and you are ready for dragon slaying I think we've been this has been an epic conversation of you know ancient and biblical proportions I think we've really just hit a lot of interesting things.

    You thought we were just talking about snakes and dragons. Come on now

    Ryan: Yeah, this memorizing scripture is so powerful as a tool. We don't talk about it very often on here, but what a gift it becomes in your life whenever you take a passage and you just have it drilled into you so that you can call on it. Like Jesus did in Temptation, right? It is written. He had to know that.

    He didn't say, "Hold on, let me pull up my app, you know, and pull up Deuteronomy." He knew it. It was written on his heart, and so he could speak it with power as wielding the sword of the Spirit that slays the dragon. And that is how we can meet the power of evil. So yeah, memorize the passage.

    Bryan: Bible Geektober has been successful because we've ended up in a pretty geeky spot, but in hopefully really fruitful ways as our teaching and our Bible study becomes even more immersed in these ideas that sometimes we just want to skip over, like the flyover books. And let's dive into it and see all the richness that God's Word has for

    Speaking of flying over things on our next episode We're gonna get into some stuff that I think we kind of sweep under the rug quite a lot which is a lot of these prophetic and and powerful poems about curses and Laments and what they have to do with Christians today and how we should interpret these things, you know These imprecatory Psalms as we call them Sometimes these Psalms calling for God to crush the heads of our enemies Like how do we deal with that and square that with what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount?

    We're gonna get into that on our next episode. So thanks so much everyone for tuning in to the Bible geeks podcast You can find us on our website at Bible geeks FM And you can reach out to us with any questions you might have you can rate us in Apple podcasts We'd appreciate that or you know, just find us on social media and give us a follow and let us know what you're thinking about The show thanks so much everyone for tuning in again until next episode. May the Lord bless you and keep you

 
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