"I Have Things to Say"
EPISODE 181
Focus on Jesus’ Power
How can Peter say, both “look at us” and “stop staring at us” in the same story (Acts 3)? And for that matter, how does Jesus tell us to both, “let people see your good works” and NOT to do them “to be seen” in the same sermon (Matt. 5-7)? How do we practically pivot to Jesus from ourselves? We get into a lot of challenging questions this week in a Do You Understand segment drawn from the lame man’s healing at the temple gate. It takes us from the purpose of miracles to setting our spiritual GPS to the right destination. We hope you find it encouraging and helpful!
Episode Transcription
Hey, look over here. Here I am. I have things too. I have a story. I have things to say. Well, hello everyone and welcome to the Bible Geeks Podcast. This is episode 181. That is a lot of episodes. My name is Bryan Schiele. I'm Ryan Joy. And thanks so much everyone for tuning in. We are back from a break week. Thanks everyone for sticking with us over the two week break. It It was a good time to be off. I am actually now recording from Montana. I don't think I have recorded from a normal location, probably in the last maybe dozen of episodes or so. It's been weird lately, I think. But thanks everyone for coming back and sticking with us. - You're a man without a home. You're in Montana, you're in your car last recording. You're all over the, you live in the nomad life, man. - It is for sure. If anyone has noticed the weird audio quality over the last few episodes, yeah, it's just 'cause I'm finding different places to record all the time. So let's move on beyond our podcast centric discussion and talk maybe about what we're going to be covering here in the next few weeks We have been doing a whole bunch of guided studies in the past and right now we're launching into a new Guided study our fourth guided study and we're gonna call it talking through Ephesians now on the next episode is where we'll kick that off and so we won't talk too much about it But I think it is important that we all see the value in book studies And so far to date, we haven't really done that. So we're going to go through one of our favorite books, maybe one of the great books that kind of summarizes almost the gospel in a way. It's the book of Ephesians. - It's such a beautiful book and it's sweeping. It's big and about the cosmic eternal purposes of God. And it's going to be fun to dive into. And we're building it out as a 13 session study guide. And so I'm excited to get into that, talking through a book and maybe we'll get a chance to get into some other books down the road as well. So yeah, I'm excited to dive into Ephesians and also excited to dive into something you wrote a while ago. We recorded back a couple years ago as one of our daily downloads that we're going to feature on this recording. Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things we've been kicking around is the idea of what do we do on episodes where we're not actually doing a guided study? And so we thought We thought it'd be cool if we dipped back into the old daily downloads that we used to do a long time ago and maybe just make an episode out of a few of them. We had a whole series, maybe 150 some odd episodes that we had recorded a couple years back and there's one of them here that I actually pulled for a sermon that I delivered not too long ago and that daily download was called Stop Staring. This is your Bible Geeks daily download. Stop Staring. Being in a crowded area or driving down the highway, have you ever gotten that feeling that someone is staring at you? Whenever I have that sneaking suspicion I'm being watched, it often turns out to be true. And as Peter and the apostles continued their ministry in Acts chapter 3, they found a few people staring at them rather intently. They said, "Look at us." In Acts chapter 3, verses 4 through 6, we read, "And Peter directed his gaze at him, As did John, and said, "Look at us!" And he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, "I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!" Cutting through the noise of the passing crowds, Peter wanted this disabled beggar's full attention. Look at us! He didn't give him a hand out, but a hand up, taking his hand and healing him from his condition. When we reach out to the world and offer spiritual healing, it's essential to cut through the noise too. Don't be afraid to focus people's attention on your message and the example of your life of faithfulness. And he says, "Why do you look at us?" In Acts chapter 3 verse 12, Peter says, "Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this? Or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? The people were filled with wonder and amazement. Acts 3 verse 10. But Peter asked them an important question. Why do you stare at us? With humility, they acknowledged that the miraculous healing wasn't based on their power. While we try to capture people's attention with the gospel, the power to save isn't ours. Be extremely careful not to become the focus. Like Paul urged when those in Lystra worshiped them as gods, "We are also men of like nature with you." (Acts 14, verse 15) And they directed people to look at Jesus. In Acts 3, verse 16, Peter says, "And His name, by faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. And the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all. So Peter redirects the people's focus to Jesus, the real source of this man's healing. Without faith in Christ, man can accomplish nothing. And don't forget to acknowledge Jesus in your work today. It's not about you, but all about Him. As the Hebrew writer reminded his audience, "Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12, verse 2) So may God help us impact the world with His Word, bringing humanity's focus on Him in all our words and our deeds. Thanks for tuning in, and may the Lord bless you and keep you today. Shalom. It's kind of fun to go back and listen to some of those old daily downloads that we did a long time ago. Speaking of audio quality issues, I mean, that was definitely a learning process as we figured out how to record some of these things. I think I was half asleep while I was reading that, but it was very relaxing. Wake up, everyone. We're into our episode now. We are thinking though about this as a conversation starter and thinking about this episode that we had dropped, stop staring on our daily downloads. I actually turned this into a sermon and it was folding in some of the ideas in our last few episodes before our break. Remember when we were talking about like pivoting and I just cannot stop thinking about that friends reference where Ross is shouting pivot, pivot. And that is basically what this daily download was about, getting people to look at us and then quickly turning their attention toward Jesus. And so as we start off this episode, let's find Jesus like we love to do and we'll go Go to Acts chapter 3 to find Jesus. That is really the focus of this particular daily download is all the text in Acts 3. But we see here this verse, "Peter directed his gaze at him." This beggar who was lame from birth, "directed his gaze at him as did John and said, 'Look at us.' And he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, 'I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Rise and walk.'" And there's this interaction between him and the man as he gets up and walks. There's the interaction between Peter and the people who saw this miracle happen. How do we find Jesus in this passage in Acts chapter three? Well, what I love about this daily download that we just listened to is this interplay between look at us and stop staring at us, right? I mean, obviously that's the concept here is first Peter says, look at us. and he does the miracle. And then there's this twist where now that they're looking and they're amazed, now their jaws are dropping, he says, "Stop staring at us. Why are you looking at us? It's not about us, look up." Think about Jesus and he tells the whole story of the gospel. So the two big places I find Jesus here are, from Peter's words, of course, Peter's in the name of and Peter's explanation. Peter does the miracle with that verbal, in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and then he does this miracle. and everyone who saw it heard that preamble. It's like the seal of the king upon the miracle. This is who really did this, is the king, is Jesus. And then Peter's explanation of the miracle, when he says, "Stop staring at us," and he tells the story, it really is the gospel story. Let me explain what has just happened here. This is why, this is who, this is the announcement that you need to hear that this miracle really points to, is the Lord Jesus who was the servant, the Holy and Righteous One and is now exalted, is at the right hand of God the Father who is, who's reigning. He is the resurrected one. He is the mighty one. And those are two really good places for us to turn attention to Jesus as we start unpacking throughout this episode. What does it mean for us to say, "Look at us," and then stop staring at us? We can start to think about, "How do I do this? And what is this about?" Well, we can share that our good deeds are done in the name of Jesus, and maybe we'll get into a little more how we can do that. I think that can feel tricky. It can feel awkward sometimes to say, we're not walking up to someone and handing them a bag of groceries and saying, "In the name of Jesus of Nazareth," and handing it to them. But we can say, "This is why I'm doing this. I'm doing this because God has blessed me and Jesus has changed me. And that's, don't think that I'm so great. It's a blessing to be able to partner with the Lord and bless others. And so it's different than deflecting. It's this idea of pivoting. I got that term from something that Harold Comer wrote, and it talks about how one of the keys to evangelism is living a life that people are noticing your character, that you're an honest person, you're a hard worker, you're a person who is serving them and doing good to them and bringing blessings into the world and then pivoting that to Jesus. This is who I am and making sure people know that. And that's, I think that's where I find Jesus in this, but it's also where I think we can bring Jesus into our lives. What do you think, what do you take from this when you look for Jesus in the story? I love that idea though, that it's really not a, like it's not a deflection. It is starting with us and then moving to Jesus very quickly after that. And what I love here so much is that Peter and John's miracle that they do in Acts chapter three is so similar to the one that we see Jesus doing in John chapter five, when he finds that man who, you know, really has basically been wanting to be healed for a very long time and sitting by the pool and Jesus asks him, "Do you want to be healed?" And then very quickly after that says, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." And that causes a really difficult scenario after people see this man taking his bed up and walking. Jesus has to get out of Dodge. I mean, he has to go find a hiding place because he knows that people are going to be looking for him. Jesus doesn't want the attention at this moment. Like Jesus, obviously for other reasons, doesn't want people to know that he is active in his ministry right away. He does, though, go find a quiet place to find this man after some time and talk to to him and ask him some really deep and serious questions about his faith and faithfulness. And I think for a lot of us, we need to see that when we get out there and we start acting in the lives of other people, like Peter and John did here, we really are going to catch people's attention. People are gonna notice us and that's not a bad thing. It's not something that we should feel bad about when people look at us and people take notice that we're active in serving other people for the Lord. But again, like you said, it really is that pivot. Let people see you and then turn their attention toward Jesus and Jesus did it. Peter and John here in this story did it. And we're also called to act in the lives of other people. And again, not feeling awkward about it. It's something I think we need to get really good at and make it authentic, make it a teaching tool and an opportunity that we have to use our relationships, to use those small moments throughout our day to really make an impact in the lives of people around us. - Yeah, there's a passage, what you said makes me think of, whenever Peter in Acts 10 later on is talking about Jesus and who he is to the Gentiles, and he says, how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil where God was with him. But it's just that idea of Jesus went about doing good. That's like just, that was his business. That was what he was busy with. He went about doing good, so it's only fitting that his disciples go about doing good. And we can't do it the way Jesus did. He's one out of all of us, the one, but we can do something and we can keep serving and bringing the blessing into the world. So I love that. - And let's roll right into our second segment here on the episode, and that is, "Do you understand?" - Do you understand anything they're saying? - Oh yes, Master Luke. - Remember that I am fluent in over six million forms of, what are you telling them? Hello, I think. - I think there is a real challenge for a lot of us in this conversation to catch the nuance or to catch the balance of what is being said here. 'Cause there's a lot of opportunities for us to really kind of miss what is being done here in Acts chapter three, or really what Jesus is trying to get us to do. Especially in the Sermon on the Mount, there's a few places there where it's like, you know, Should I be seen by people? Oh, but don't be seen by people. This kind of difficulty that exists. And I guess maybe it's an opportunity for us to talk about some questions that we might have and really wrestle some of the deeper issues at hand when we're trying to be like Peter and John here in this story in X3. - Absolutely. I think it's funny that as we start a segment that's gonna get into the idea of humility that you have a quote of a droid that is wrestling with his pride. (laughs) - Exactly. - I do speak so many languages, it's pretty funny. Anyway, so we're gonna ask three questions and we're gonna go from this idea of the miracles into what you're talking about from the sermon on the mound and then finally to something a little more practical as we apply it. So first question, Bryan, what were the purposes and goals of miracles in the time of Jesus and the apostles? - Yeah, right off the bat, I think you have to get clear on that because why is it that Peter was doing these things? what was his motivation in doing this. One of the great things that we see here in Acts 3 is how Jesus is really the highlight. But even Jesus went back and explained what his motivation is and purpose was when doing miracles like this. There was another healing instance in Mark chapter two where it talks about how there's this paralytic and this is the one who came in through the roof, if you'll remember. And basically Jesus tells him, "Your sins are forgiven." And a lot of people were really frustrated about that or shocked that Jesus would say that. And he goes on to say, "Well, which is harder to say that your sins are forgiven or rise and walk again. I'm gonna do this amazing miracle so that you can know that I have the authority to tell this man his sins are forgiven." Like it's obvious here that Jesus was using a miracle to show that he has even broader power and greater power than just making a lame man walk again. And I think Jesus is using these miracles here, just saying, yes, I have the authority. And that is really for not even just during the time of Jesus and during the time of the apostles, but just all throughout the Old Testament even, how did you know that a prophet was really a prophet? Or, you know, speaking as a mouthpiece from God. Well, you knew that he was the legit real deal because he was doing miracles. And that's how you could confirm those things. So obviously I think here, the question on the surface might be answered simply by just saying, you know, it's to give credence or credibility to the authority that someone has. But I mean, not to mention just all of that, we see in 1 Corinthians 13, how the early church really needed a lot of help. And the early church needed, you know, all of these different activities and things that were going on, like speaking in tongues and prophecy and all of these things that were going on early in the church. And Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 says that love really supersedes all of those because all these other things are gonna go away. We know in part, we prophesy in part, but he goes on to talk about how all of these things, all these tongues and prophecies and everything else, they're going away, but love is the thing that is gonna last forever. And so, you see there that one of the great purposes of the miracles and these amazing miraculous gifts was to help shore up the church and to support the church during this formative time, but really the whole focus needed to be on love by those people. So just two sides of this, confirming the authority of someone and going on to perform some really helpful works early on in the history of the church. - Yeah, and I think that passage you pointed to in Mark two that you started with about the paralytic and Jesus forgiving his sins first and the connection between that spiritual healing and the physical healing is really more central to this discussion about miracles than I used to really think about very much. There's another passage that surprised me as I was studying through Matthew a few years ago. And it's in Matthew eight, where Jesus heals Peter's mother-in-law, and then a bunch of other people are brought to him. He's casting out demons, he's healing the sick. And then it says, was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, he took our illnesses and bore our disease." Oh yeah. And that's really interesting because that's Isaiah 53 verse 4 that he's quoting. He's "born our griefs, carried our sorrows, but we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted." Isaiah would seem to be talking about spiritual sickness. He took away all of our sins as we read the rest of, of course, the famous beautiful servant song there, but those things are connected. Jesus is eliminating death and He's eliminating all the things that come with death that came with sin, with the curse. He hasn't eliminated those things yet. He was the first fruits of eliminating that and it's coming, but this is all a foretaste of what He's bringing in the kingdom. The miracles are signs pointing to the real thing, which is Jesus. And Jesus is bringing a spiritual healing that points to this full and complete healing. Once we're made whole and right with God spiritually, well, that will lead us to all of the blessings that are to come. It's Acts 2, the chapter before our text for this episode is the famous sermon of Peter, where he says, "Jesus of Nazareth, "a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst as you yourselves know. And so he's saying that the thing isn't the miracles. The miracles are signs. You know, when you're driving on the road and you see a sign for Chick-fil-A, that's not the thing. Chick-fil-A is not the sign. It's telling you, here, get off here and go to Chick-fil-A unless it's Sunday and then keep driving because it's worthless. But the Jesus miracle isn't the real thing. It's a sign telling you a healing miracle is a tiny taste of the healing in life Jesus will bring in the age to come. And beyond that idea of him taking away death and sin, it shows us he is the one with the royal divine power. He is the one who God the Father is confirming as the one. And so they give us this sense of his victory. And scripture is very clear that their main purpose is to lead people to faith in Him. And we've talked a lot on this podcast about the seven signs of John. We did a whole series on that and we get to the end of the book of John and John says, Hey, I could fill the whole world with books about what this guy did. This man did more than you can imagine, but I've written these things. So you may believe, so you may know he's the son of God. The Mark 16 emphasizes this. I think of Hebrews chapter two and it takes a different take on this because it's a writer writing to a second generation of Christians, you might say. This isn't those people who are walking with Jesus in his time on earth. And in verse 3 of Hebrews 2, he says that this word of salvation, after it was first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard. It was attested to us. The people who heard, the apostles And those who they laid their hands on, the apostles and others, brought this word to them and confirmed it to them, those who heard. And so it has the same purpose that it had for Jesus with all of those other apostles. The purpose is ultimately for us to understand who Jesus is and for us to believe in Him so that we can start to receive this healing that in His compassion, He began to bring long ago on this world when He walked here. And I think the whole reason why we're even asking this question is not even so much to just talk about like, you know, "Ooh, miracles, what were they and why, where are they today?" That's not, I guess, the focus of this question so much as to say that even if someone like Peter and John there in Acts chapter 3 were doing amazing miracles and people were astounded by it, it was never really to highlight how amazing Peter and John was. Like it, there were so many purposes behind the miracles that had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the people actually doing them at the time. Like you said, they were really confirming the things that were being said by these people, making sure that people understood who Jesus was and who really had the authority and the power. And so I think as we sort of hone in and focus in this conversation, maybe it leads us to our second question, which is why does Jesus say not to do work seen of men? This is going back to the Sermon on the Mount there. after he says to do works so that others can see them. What is the distinction there? I mean, a lot of people struggle with this. I also have struggled with this. How do we sort of hold these two things in balance where we don't do things so that people can see us, but we get out there and do things so that people can see us? Yeah, you just, it definitely sounds like you're talking out of two sides of your mouth or something when you say it that way. Yeah, I I think when you read the chapters you get a better sense of what he's saying because he's so descriptive in chapter 7 of All of the praise that the Pharisees and everybody who's doing things to be seen of men are trying to seek this esteem as opposed to chapter 5 and that passage in verses 14 on where he talks about being a light or being a city on a hill being salt of the earth and we had a long discussion of this as well Maybe a year ago or so on the bench of knowledge that when we were outside At Pocahontas State Park talking about being a light and the light of the world But I think here's one way of thinking about it our destination on our spiritual GPS should be righteousness and love and goodness This is the address that we're trying to get this is our goal is to be righteous people to be loving people to be good people. But instead, have you ever gotten the address wrong on a place and like, just the other day, I used this app for scheduling services at the house, plumbers and stuff like that. And for some reason, this app had our address, like one digit was wrong. And we were having people sent to this place like six miles from here. And I didn't even know they were like waiting for us and they they couldn't get in and there's all these problems. And so we can be the same way. Instead of directing ourselves towards that goal, we get the address wrong and set out towards its next door neighbor, which is being thought of as righteous and loving and good. And it can get twisted over itself because if you are righteous and loving and good, then you probably are thought of as righteous and loving and good, maybe you're not. Sometimes you're misunderstood, but you probably are. but that wasn't your goal. And sometimes, but sometimes you get that all twisted up and you start to get the car before the horse, get the address wrong and start thinking, I want people to know I'm good. I'm a really loving guy. And boy, we have just, when you start to just miss the pass by the house you're supposed to stop at and pull into that wrong driveway, all kinds of things start going wrong when you go into that house. It's just the wrong thing to shoot for. So I think that's what he's talking about is yeah, try to be these things. And if other people see you being these things so much, the better that they'll be able to glorify God. They know that you're doing it in the name of Jesus Christ. They know that you're doing it for the glory of the Lord. If you're sharing that and you're being clear about, Hey, this isn't about me. This is about this. But man, if the other thing is your goal, then you're not those things. It just looks like it. The fence between those two houses is a huge divide in reality, even though they look similar. What you're saying just really reminds me of an off by one error. You know how seriously like it is so easy to just think you've got everything right and everything figured out, but then just be so ever so slightly wrong. Like we need to, we need a recalculation in our GPS coordinates. We need some sort of an auto-correct to come along and be like, "Look, I know you just typed this, but dude, you got to retype that thing because it's wrong." And I think for me, that thought process of just seeing Satan's devices so clearly there, do you think there's any reason why it's so easy to just stop at the stop of being thought of as righteous and good? Like all of these little pitfalls and potholes along the sides of the road are right there. And it's just asking, it's begging to be stepped into and tripped over and fallen on. And it's of course the goal of love and goodness and righteousness and all of these amazing qualities being like Jesus, pointing people to Jesus. Oh, but just letting people see us. And I think that idea of who is the focus for me is the clarifying answer to the question of, do I have the right goal in mind? Am I the focus? Is this about me? Am I making this about me? Or is this about Jesus? Because that's really the problem there. Being thought of makes it about you. Focusing on your life of righteousness, love, and goodness as a way of pointing to Jesus, that makes the service about Jesus and not about me. And I don't know, I love this idea of the goal and where your destination is. And yeah, I mean, it's just ever so slightly off, but that just makes it even more difficult and challenging to follow this complex path, I think, that Jesus has laid out for us here in the Sermon on the Mount. - And that's what discernment is like taking two like things. It's the off by one error. It's taking these things that look the same and distinguishing where do I put the line between, oh, that is the line, that's the difference, you know, and seeing actually, yeah, these two things are miles apart, even though they look similar. So our third question is getting practical. How can we actually do this pivot to Jesus? How can we turn people and turn any attention that comes to us in this way, how can we say, here's who you really need to focus on, here's what's the source and the direction and the inspiration and all the good behind this. - And this is what I think we were talking about in our chosen episode, how we were looking at, is this a show about Jesus or is this a show about the people who Jesus has impacted? And I think that's really what has led me to start thinking about this over the last few weeks. And really the idea here is if, for me, if I really wanna practically pivot to Jesus, I can't deflect to Jesus. I can't just robotically and out of rote and pure monotony like just download the facts of Jesus into someone else's heart or into their mind. Like I have to share my story. And if I'm thinking practically, like this is for me the big challenge is that I have to open up and I have to let people see how Jesus has changed me. Not that it's about me, you know, and then that's where the pivot comes in, but not that I'm just only sharing my story and only wanting people to look at me, but I think in order to help people pivot to Jesus, we really do have to leverage our connections with people. We have to leverage our relationships, not in like a multi-level marketing kind of way, but really in just a genuine heartfelt love and concern for people that we want people to see how Jesus has changed me. And why is Jesus such an integral part of my life? Why am I so different because of Him? And I think the more that we allow people in and we get a little vulnerable and we let people see how the Lord has changed me. Really, if you think about it, like, isn't that exactly what the Samaritan woman at the well did when she ran into the city? And she basically said, "This man told me everything that I ever did." And she started by telling her story. Like, why is she so excited? Why should you come and see Jesus? Well, let me tell you what he did for me. Now, you got to come experience it for yourself. Actually, that's a common theme in John, right? John chapter one, there are so many examples of that when in the earliest callings of people and coming to see Jesus and coming to learn about Him. I think for me, practically speaking, is just making sure people can see me. And then obviously, yes, turning people's attention from there quickly, very quickly, to Jesus and making sure they see Him. But yeah, that starting point with me is an important one. - I think, boy, I took a lot from what you said there. I think first of all, I loved your, just the reference to multi-level marketing just highlights so well. Not, I know, I have family that's very involved in that. I'm not trying to villainize, but that we all have, I think, experienced in whatever scenario, someone trying to manipulate us, trying to use, like you said, leverage a genuine love that you have for them into something different. And I think a starting point for this is not wanting anything from anyone. Like there is no manipulation. Do I want you to be blessed? Yeah. Do I want you to have eternal life? I want that for you. I don't want anything from you. As Paul said, I do not seek yours, but you. Once we sort of release people from, and release ourselves from this pressure to talk them into something, then there's a different kind of freedom that's that Samaritan woman freedom of, I just want to tell everybody, I know how great this is and take it, don't take it. Obviously I want it for you. And it doesn't mean there's no strategy, but we can't live in that strategic part of our brain. The fountain of it needs to be from that life, from joy, from salvation, from gratitude, from the, all of those things that have changed in us or from the terror of the Lord, from that sense of wanting to, just wanting people to be saved from what's, this is rescue and we care. But I think that's the first thing that I took from what you said. The second thing I took from what you said, when you said not from rote or not from like just habitual deflecting, that made me think about my favorite football team, the quarterback last year, every press conference, he started by saying, before he would take any questions make any statements. First of all, I want to start by saying, I give all glory to my Lord and savior, Jesus Christ. And I do not want to diminish first of all, what that does. I mean, that is, you know, those reporters don't want to hear that. A lot of people don't want to hear that. Right. And he, he put it in their face over and over again and made it, made it a focal point, but it was much more meaningful whenever he or other players started to open up about why, about who they are. You were talking about sharing your story and just like that second level. And it doesn't need to be, okay, give me 20 minutes to tell you five points about what God has done for me. But just again, that authenticity of being able to say more than just a rote phrase that you throw in there, that it's good to have that instinct to direct people to the Lord, but being as purposeful and in the moment as we can. The Ephesians 4 verse 29, "But only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear." Speak to the occasion that you're in and not that rote deflection. So I really like that. I feel like the key is being open about who you are. that you can't be a closet Christian and expect anybody to know or to pivot to Jesus, but you can go without even saying anything about Jesus. And if people know who you are, because they know what you're doing every Sunday, they know how you're spending your Tuesday nights, they've had conversations with you where you said, "I'm going to pray for you about this and follow up." So if people know who you are just because it's woven into that, then when they see that you're doing something kind for them or when they see something good, it doesn't free us from bringing up Jesus, but it's already there. It's already woven into the fabric. Of course they do that. They're a Christian. It's about Jesus. And then the next step is starting to get them to know that this is about a person. It's not about a way of life. It's not about, "This is my religion." It's about who God is, who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is. and starting to direct them towards this person, these three persons towards God and showing them the goodness that he can bring. - Yeah, that's really good. And that openness, I think, is a nice way of leading us right into our last segment here on the episode. (laughing) And that is our reach out question. ♪ Reach out, reach out and touch someone ♪ - So I don't know how we wound up doing this, but we are going to go back to a ooey gooey, squishy reach out question here on the episode. - We've made this challenging for ourselves. The question that we're gonna ask each other today is, have you ever gotten snagged by a desire to be seen by people in your works? So is that something you've ever struggled with? - You know, it's weird 'cause I am uncomfortable with praise, but if I'm honest with myself, then I know I do want people to think I'm generally a good guy. It's like the wrong destination, right? It's the wrong address. - Recalculating. - Recalculating. I don't want it talked about, but I want it understood, which is such a silly, twisted little way of being proud. And I think where I get snagged into seeking credit most is when I get the impression someone thinks I'm not doing very much, and then all my desire to do good secretly, to be unseen, just disappears. It just does this very weak little part of me starts wanting to leak out into the conversation some of what I've done. It's so foolish. And it happens the most with my wife. And when I can catch it, I go on what I'll call maybe a little journey of remembering. We've talked before about how remembering, I think we talked with Michael the other day, about how remembering can be such a key part of being a Christian. So I do a lot of reminding myself of things, reminding myself of the things I know that anchor me back to a more sane perspective. I like to remember Jesus' example. Jesus didn't seek his own glory. He didn't defend himself. I remember the grace I can find in prayer, pray for God to fill me. I do this all the time, to be filled with power and wisdom and love and the fruit of the Spirit, for God's Spirit to be a work in me, for Jesus to live in me. And I try to remember that God knows everything I do. Sometimes I remind myself of all that I haven't done, that I could have done, and God knows about all that too. And so there's just a lot of, okay, let's have a little, going back to talking to yourself, let's have a little talk with Ryan here and I can get myself on track. But that's when you have to catch yourself first. And sometimes it can be a little further into the conversation than I would want it to be before I catch myself. But I've gotten a lot better through the years. So there's that, but I've got a lot of work to go on that. Yeah. It's so hard to think about these things objectively because you, you really are up against yourself and your view of yourself, right? And it's such a challenge. But I think for me, and I'll just echo that, I really feel very connected to a lot of what you just said, so I won't rehash all of that, but ditto. And I also kind of feel this self creeping into things when I'm talking to people. And I have this moment where I catch myself being a listener in the conversation, but then realizing that all I'm really doing is waiting until I can figure out what I'm gonna say next and how I'm going to share my story. This is the challenge for me is like coming out of our last discussion about sharing our story and being open, well, but don't be the one who always has to share your story in every situation. Right? 'Cause I'm not trying to make it about myself, but there have been so many times where somebody is talking to me and they're explaining something to me and not like one-upsmanship where I'm like, oh yeah, well, you did that. Well, let me tell you what I did. But maybe I'm trying to shoehorn in my situation in order to feel like maybe I'm in the same boat as them or I know what they're going through, well, maybe I don't. And maybe I should just stop trying to do that. And I don't know, there have been so many times for me, even just in these kinds of moments with people and talking where I'm trying to fight not to hijack the conversation to make it about myself for whatever purposes. Sometimes in moments of weakness, like you talked about, I can definitely find myself wanting to really make the conversation about me. But then sometimes it's just a little bit too much of my story when I should be making it all about their story. Just a lot of the ways that self creeps in and our pride creeps in and yeah, it is, it's silly sometimes just to see how our brain works and wants to make these situations about us, I guess. - Yeah, it would be good for us to do, maybe we should do a short guided study sometime on listening because there's so much in, like in what you were just saying, it's about so much more than listening, but listening becomes a conduit for that proper kind of love and letting people have the space to be heard and known and you not having to insert yourself and make things about you. And that is something I think about a lot, but you never master. You never get even close to mastering. And so just being aware of it is a good step. But I really appreciated what you said there about how we can start to want to show up in that way. And that does relate to what Jesus said and to this idea of being seen because it's just another way of us saying, "Hey, look over here. Here I am. I have things too. I have a story. I have things to say." Oh man. Yeah, look at me. All right, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning into the Bible Geeks Podcast. You can find us on our website at BibleGeeks.fm. You can find show notes for this episode in your podcast player of choice or BibleGeeks.fm/181. We are also beginning our Talking Through Ephesians series on the next episode. We invite you to get involved with that with us. And if you want to get a head start, you can just sit down and read the book of Ephesians. I think what it's only like 25 minutes, 20 minutes read if you sit down and read it end to end. Do that maybe as preparation for the next episode. Thank you again and until next week, may the Lord bless you and keep you. Shalom. [MUSIC PLAYING]