"Sit Down, I'm the Worst!"
EPISODE 173
Appreciate Biblical People of Faith
And we have a winner! This week we wrap up our 2023 Bible Bracket, surveying the life and writings of Paul the Apostle, who voters identified as a Favorite Figure of Faith (biblegeeks.fm/bracket). We’re also excited to have Jeff O’Rear join us on this week’s episode. Jeff is an evangelist with the Judson Road church of Christ in Longview, Texas, and seemed like the perfect guest co-host for a review of the Bible Bracket. Together, we talk about our biggest upsets (Barnbabas!!!), why we appreciate Paul, and who else has impacted us by their example in Scripture. We hope you find the conversation encouraging!
Takeaways
The Big Idea: God preserved the stories of the faithful so we can reflect on them and learn.
This Week's Challenge: Ask someone about their favorite figure of faith.
Episode Transcription
Everyone say, "Well, no, I'm the chief of sinners. No, I'm the chief of sinners." Listen, buddy, sit down. I'm the worst. Yeah. Well, hello everyone and welcome to the Bible Geeks Weekly Podcast. This is episode 173. I'm Bryan Schiele. I'm Ryan Joy. And thanks so much everyone for tuning in to our very first guest episode for a guest that is absolutely not related to us at all. Welcome to the show, Jeff O'Rear. Thanks for being with us, Jeff. - Hey guys, I'm really excited to be here. I was just relisting some things and was reminded that the last time y'all had guessed on was your wives. I'm like, oh, this is a, I guess, kind of exciting and nervous thing that I'm the next person to come on in that way, but I'm looking forward to it. - Well, we've both known Jeff for a really long time, it seems like. Maybe from the very beginning of the podcast, I think Jeff was probably one of our biggest interactors on social media and always reaching out and talking to us about the show and just a really encouraging guy. Basically like Barnabas to the show for sure. - Hey, shout out to Barnabas, I like that. - That's right, we're gonna get some of that in there. - Starting it right. - That's right, Jeff works with the Judson Road Church of Christ in Longview, Texas. He is a co-host on the Working With the Word podcast that actually ended earlier this year, back in January. A really solid podcast if you wanted to go back into the back catalog of that one. and he's an avid reader and definitely a Bible geek if there ever was one. So we're definitely excited to have you on the show. - Yeah, hopefully that's not offensive. We own it with pride, but. - No, I definitely enjoy that title. Geekdom has kind of come back into the world and is almost a badge now. And so being a geek is definitely not a bad thing. - Well, amen brother, I appreciate that. - So we are now at the completion of our Bible bracket our second ever Bible bracket, the favorite figures of faith Bible bracket where we put out a set of figures that Bryan and I drafted in a previous 18 episode back a few episodes ago. And we put that bracket out as the true March madness tournament that we were most excited about and everybody voted and we have a winner now. And that brings this conversation on with Jeff to start talking about this winner and the bracket itself. So I want to start with an icebreaker and ask Bryan and Jeff, what was your biggest upset during this year's bracket? - Well, we all know who your biggest upset is, so we'll definitely leave that for the end. I thought it was really sad that John, the apostle lost to Mary, Jesus' mom. - Round one. - Listen, I was totally on board with Mary, Jesus' mother, as the pick for that round, but honestly, John, I mean, come on, like John should not have lost in the first round. And I think he's just made a huge impact. I've loved his writing and I relate to him so well. So yeah, to see the disciple that Jesus loved knocked out in the first round by Jesus' mom, yeah, that was pretty hard. - Jesus' mom, whom he evidently took in and took care of as you know. - Exactly, yeah. Seems wrong in some way, but yeah. Jeff, what was your big upset this year? - I mean, I had Josiah going the whole thing And that was just in my own bracket. And I knew it was going to be tough whenever he would get to... I had pretty good confidence he would get to the round with David, but I knew it was going to be rough for him to get past David there. But I mean, he's the only guy in Scripture who lives up to the Deuteronomy 6.5 of this is what you're supposed to do, kind of the core of loving the Lord your God. It literally says that about him in 2 Kings. And so it's tough to see that guy fall down, but he's fallen down to the one who kills giants and the guy who is the man after God's own heart. But Josiah is a guy who has love for God and his respect for the Lord's word is just truly amazing. And I get it, but I wish I could have seen him gone farther. - I love that pick. Yeah, that's really good. Unfortunately, there's really only one correct answer to this question. And that is Barnabas, who was ousted in the first round. Barnabas is definitely my favorite figure of faith, not just from the bracket. I just, I mean, if you're leaving out Jesus from this conversation, he's a personal favorite of mine, Barnabas, the one who they had to rename him with his nickname, Son of Encouragement. I love that. And just focusing on his relationship with this year's winner, can you imagine Paul's life in ministry without Barnabas, without him vouching for Saul with the Jerusalem church and recruiting him to the Antioch church and letting Paul take top billing in their partnership, working with him throughout that whole period. That was pretty sad to see him go, but that's what you expect. There's always a growner, right, in March Madness brackets. - That's right. - All right, so let's roll this thing right into our Finding Jesus segment. We're gonna talk a little bit about where we find Jesus in this whole bracket, and I think there's a passage in 1 Corinthians chapter 10, which by the way, we haven't really talked about the main winner here, which was Paul the apostle. And maybe this verse helps us understand why Paul was such a favorite figure of faith. Here in 1 Corinthians chapter 10 verses 31 through chapter 11 verse 1, he says, "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, "do all to the glory of God." He says, "Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks "or to the church of God, just as I try to please everyone "in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, "but that of the many, that they may be saved." Then he says, "Be imitators of me as I am of Christ." So in these sort of famous words of Paul, where do we find Jesus here? I think it's pretty easy to find him, but Bryan, what do you think? - Yeah, I see what you did there. It's a very clever choice to have us find Jesus in this passage where Paul says, "To be imitators of Him as He is of Christ." I love this. This is a central goal of his life to, as he says in Galatians two, to die to himself and let Christ live in him. And so I think this is perfect. I think that the way he prioritizes the many here, he wants to save the many, that's not just a reference to a Gene Roddenberry character, Spock, you know, wanting to prioritize the many, but rather it makes me think most of all to Jesus, the way that he says, "Even the Son of Man did not come to be served, "but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many." So Paul is absolutely an example that we can find Jesus in as we look at his life and his writings. - Yeah, I don't know if I'm allowed to leave 1 Corinthians. - Fully allowed, yes. - All right, I'm gonna jump over to Philippians for a little bit and thinking about kind of this imitation and even the talk about really an idea of humility and looking out for others, maybe think of some things that Paul writes to the Philippians. It seems like they needed lots of good things written to them, lots of encouraging things, but they needed some help in the humility department, it seems. Particularly, talked about in the beginning of chapter 2, and Paul uses kind of his relationship with them as an example. He's not someone who's going to put himself before other people. He's always going to be looking for ways to honor others, respect others. He even in chapter 2 of Philippians uses an example of Timothy in Epaphroditus with that. But obviously, humility is best characterized not in Paul or Timothy or Epaphroditus, but in Jesus. So any of these things that Paul would want the Philippians to be doing, he's not just going to say, "Hey, I'm Paul. I'm like the guy Paul." He's going to always point people to Jesus himself. And just that great verse there in Philippians 2 and verse 5, "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus." And if, you know, they really want to be humble people, if they want to be people who are really honoring Paul, they need to have not just, "Hey, let's be like Paul," but let's be like Jesus kind of thoughts in there. - I think that's one of the great reasons why Paul is such a great figure of faith and a favorite one among a lot of people is that he was humble and he could have very easily pointed at himself like you said and just made it all about him. But he was always deflecting and he was always pointing it to Jesus who obviously is the ultimate source of our attention. So he realized his place, which when you find somebody like that, that's refreshing in the world. And I'm sure that's why a lot of people connected with someone like Paul. - Yeah. - And an ironic winner of the bracket since he always was saying, I am the least of the apostles. I'm not fit to be called an apostle. I'm nobody. - Yeah. - But because Christ loved me, that I can boast in. - So that's the verse that I called out to in 1 Corinthians 15 verse nine, as an asterisk to the bottom of the Bible bracket. You know, because you probably would not agree that he had won, but accept the trophy, dude. You won the Bible bracket, so. (laughing) Let's move on here to our second segment here on the episode and that is, Hello, My Name Is. ♪ Hello ♪ ♪ Is it me you're looking for ♪ So often in these segments, we do a character study. We go back to somebody from the Bible and we talk about their story. And here, I think it just fits that we look at Paul and his life and really understanding what Paul was all about. And so let me just kick this thing off with a discussion about his early life. We're gonna do a summary overview of Paul and his situation, but I think as heroic as Paul was to people, and especially as the winner of this favorite figures of faith bracket, he had a story and it started in a very different place than it ended. You look at all of Jesus' disciples, even in the gospels, all the earliest ones, and they all had a bit of a troubled background sometimes. They were notorious for being a little challenging, but Saul of Tarsus was probably the least likely candidate for coming to Christ. Just not a guy that you expect. Though we watched him standing by the coats while Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts, we really get to know him by the things that he starts to say about his own story. And I love this about Paul, that he uses his opportunities many times to tell the story of where he came from. And I think that's actually a great tool in evangelism to just talk about your own story, but Paul really goes in in Acts 22, verse three through five, he starts talking about how he was a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel, according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God, as all of you are this day, he says, "I persecuted this way to death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness." And so then he talks about how he was going to Damascus to pull people into prison. And man, he was doing everything he could to destroy the church, but he was doing it in a good conscience. In Acts 23 verse one, he actually goes on to talk about how everything he did back then has been done up to this very moment in good conscience. And so, I don't know if you could be more misguided or more opposed to Christ's mission than Saul of Tarsus was, but it also makes you, I think, really appreciate where he eventually wound up and where he got to in his life after seeing where he came from. Absolutely. How he goes from that step of being someone who's completely opposed to Jesus, to being someone who, when we first read of that account in Acts chapter nine, I'm angry with anybody who's following Jesus to, I'm going to preach about Jesus. I mean, if I was in Damascus, I too would have been confused about Saul coming into town and I would not have expected to hear that message at the end of all of that. But it's just amazing to see how Luke records that for us and then how, you know, by the spirit, Luke records it again to other times when Paul uses that story himself to talk about his conversion when he's speaking to that crowd of Jews in Acts 22 and speaking before Agrippa in Acts 26. So obviously, it seems like something that was worth recounting and talking about. And like you said, I think that's something we can learn from to see. It doesn't need to just be when we're talking with people, you need to do this, you need to do this. There'll be times that we can say, "This is what I've done, and this is what's happened in my life, and this is why I think this is valuable for you." But just seeing how conversion is such a radical thing, and I think that's something that... You can see it in Paul, you can look at somebody like the Thessalonians, they turned to God from idols. You think about some people like, "Oh, they had a radical conversion." But I think really for all of us, we need to try to think about it in that way, and seeing that we're moving from opposing God to serving God. And that really is something that happens after we spend time getting to know Jesus through His Word. Again, just the fact that He goes from breathing threats against Christians at the beginning of Acts chapter 9 to maybe breathing isn't the right idea, but parallel the words there, but the preaching about Jesus through the middle of that chapter, it just shows how such a big deal it is to spend time with Jesus and get to know Him and how that made such an impact in Paul's life. He's on a road, he sees this bright light, and you think, "Well, Well, duh, anybody would have a great response to that. But Paul goes on and he's gonna help people to see Jesus. And he goes from that experience to saying, "I'm someone who has seen Jesus and I need to tell you about Him." And before we get even to his work of helping Christians grow and planting churches, just to see his own response to Jesus of obedience and great faith, those three days in Damascus or however long it is when he's just praying and fasting, what's going on through his mind? I wonder, there's all types of "I wonders" or "what ifs." What is he thinking about his former background? I mean, he'll talk about that a lot later in places, even like you talked about there in Acts 22. He knows his background and knows what he was supposed to be as a Pharisee, but here he is putting himself on a very different plan and path for his life, and just obviously commendable for that faith and obedience and how he immediately gets to work. And he becomes a Christian, and nice helps him to know the things he needs to know. He obeys the gospel, has his sins washed away. Some very helpful things for us to see about what it means to become a Christian through Paul talking about his conversion. But just going right to it, whether it be, I imagine, Ananias telling Saul and then who becomes Paul at the time, how he's going to be a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and to the children of Israel. He's not going to take time to wait on that. He's going to get started right away. And Galatians talks about there maybe being some time of him doing some learning that we don't have details about, but I don't think that he was just twiddling his thumb in those times. I think he was working for the Lord. And even when the Lord speaks to him and he records it himself or talks about himself in Acts 26, 18, I love this idea of seeing how Jesus tells him, "This is what you're going to do. You're going to go and open their eyes, speaking about the Gentiles, so that they may turn from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins in a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." I think it's probably going to come up again and again throughout our conversation with Paul, but he can preach that message of turning from the power of Satan to God because he's lived that message. He's gone from darkness to light and darkness that's very violently opposed to God to the light that helps him to see the glory of God and to see what the life of a disciple of Jesus really looks like. There's just so many things to look at from Paul's conversions to be reminded of not just in how to to obey the gospel, but what we can do as we're starting to live the gospel. I love that point you made about the radical change. We see it in Paul, but really the change from darkness to light is always radical. Yeah. And this idea that we can learn so much from looking at any servants life. I love talking to anybody about their conversion to Christ. That's one of my favorite things to do. I just, it was a gospel meeting and I just asked everybody that I met, how did you come to the Lord and heard all these great stories. And Paul's work continues from there. As you said, he does go to open the Gentiles eyes and he does this work as a chosen instrument of gods as he he's brought from his hometown at Tarsus to guess who goes and gets him. Barnabas goes and gets him and brings him from Tarsus to Antioch. You know, Barnabas sees this ethnically diverse, there's a lot of Gentiles here, group of Christians that's growing and they're responding to the Lord, but they need somebody that really knows the Old Testament scriptures, and he knows just the man for the job. And so he brings him there, and they're thriving and teaching together. And then in Acts 13, as the church in Antioch was worshiping and fasting, the Holy Spirit says, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. And so they send them off to this mission to take the gospel to other areas. Hey, this has changed our lives. We can't keep this to ourselves. We got to send this out. Saul and Barnabas, you're the ones to go. So they go to the island of Cyprus and throughout Asia Minor and they're proclaiming the good news. They're planting these churches. There's a lot that goes wrong, a lot that's really hard, but through it all, there's this success as not everybody, But some people just about everywhere they go are converted to the Lord. And a lot of the new disciples are Jewish. Of course, they're going to the synagogue first everywhere they go, but not everybody. And there's a lot of Gentiles among the new converts. And this becomes a bit of an issue, a big issue, really almost a defining issue in Paul's teaching and Paul's life and ministry and his writings. Cause this is something you don't do. You don't associate with Gentiles. You don't, there's us and there's them. And they're not following the Sabbath laws. They're not following the kosher eating laws. They're not doing these things. And so Paul keeps dealing with this over and over. Acts 15 becomes kind of a major point in that particular story as a big group of disciples come to Jerusalem, but it doesn't put the issue to rest. It keeps coming up. And so Paul goes throughout the world, teaching the gospel, converting not only Jews, but again converting a lot of Gentiles and then teaching these Jews and Gentiles to live together in unity as God's family. Luke records three missionary journeys of Paul. He ends the book of Acts with Paul preaching under house arrest in Rome as he awaits trial before Caesar. The story obviously continues from there. We read a lot about Paul from Paul's own writings as he wrote nearly half the books of the New Testament and some of his later books seem to suggest he was released from that imprisonment, he kept preaching elsewhere. Maybe he accomplished his dream of bringing the gospel to Spain, the edge of the Roman Empire as he talks about in Romans 15. We don't know a lot about Paul's life, especially that end part of his life, but maybe a good place to end the overview of his life is in 2 Timothy where he looks back on his life and work and summarizes, And even as he's looking back, he can't help but look forward. And he says that he's already being poured out as a drink offering. And the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight. I have finished the race. I have kept the faith. Henceforth, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge will award to me on that day and not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his appearing. - So that's a fitting end, I think, from 2 Timothy 4 verses six to eight. How did you get stuck summarizing the entire New Testament effectively? (laughing) - I don't know, I noticed, yeah. Jeff has like one chapter to cover there in Acts nine. I know he repeats it three times, but you have really less than that even, Bryan. - I do, I do, yeah. Well, I think you did a good job. - Thanks. - I guess that leads us to this question, though. Why do you think Paul is such a beloved figure of faith? Really, what is it that you take away from the things that you've seen in his life and his writings that really stands out to you? I mean, what is it that makes Paul such a compelling figure that even he would beat out someone like Joseph or, you know, David and all the people that were in this bracket? Why is Paul the number one? - I think his writings are a big part of it, at least for me. I think you get to know somebody really well when you spend so much time with their thoughts and their words. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about what did Paul mean by this? You see these grand ideas, I mean, big, huge, creative, interesting, challenging ideas, these pictures that he gives in his writings, and you just can't help but appreciate that this man, through the Holy Spirit, sat down and wrote these things. I think if we only had one of these 13 letters, we would still love him. He might have still won a tournament like this. If we only had Ephesians, if we only had Romans or Philippians, wow, there's still so much power in each one of those. And we would know what he thought about the world, what he thought about the cross, what his life had become. But I just think about his writings are so powerful. I think if I think about a takeaway, I have to say two takeaways from his writings. One is how much God loves me. The way he captures it in Ephesians three, the height, the depth, the width of his love. Romans eight, of course, famously just captures the beauty, the power of God's love. Nothing can separate you from God's love. And then the second thing, I'd say how much is required of me whenever I decide to follow Christ and that this is a true life change. This is everything. My first public reading in a church service was from Romans 12 as like a 13 year old kid. And I just, I remember I had this little NIV Bible and I just memorized Romans 12 as I read it over and over again. You know, you're so nervous and boy, it stuck with me. I'm sometimes thankful that that's the passage I started with. Then like 16 or 17 year old, it was my first sermon because I discovered it again. And it was like, wow, this is what it means to be a Christian, to be a living sacrifice, to have your mind completely transformed and renewed by this teaching and to love with sincerity and to hate what's evil and to hold on to what's good. And just the power of that chapter really has been life changer just in itself. That one chapter for me to understand what it means to be a disciple. And so I'll just grab onto those ideas. Jeff, what about you? Why do you think Paul is such a beloved figure of faith? What do you take from Paul? I think a lot of people can relate to Paul. If you're going to be in like a 1st Timothy class, you're going to be in 1st Timothy chapter 1 and he makes that statement, "I'm the chief of sinners." And then you kind of get like this group might say discussion, but kind of almost more of just like a blow up of everyone say, "Well, no, I'm the chief of sinners. No, I'm the chief of sinners." Listen, buddy, sit down. I'm the worst. Yeah. Because we all just, I think we all can connect to that in some way. There's lots of people, myself included, who reflect on the past and think, "Man, I don't deserve what I have at all." But I thank God for it every day. And when we've been shown the impact of the servant who came to give his life as a ransom for us, it just makes it so much more relevant and say that, "Yeah, I know Paul makes that point. I get from his background why he makes that point, but I also see what Paul is pointing to that we would use our stories like Paul does to close out that section of just the idea of if Jesus can save me, He can save you too. I mean, when you think about some of the earliest disciples, you've got people like Paul who was killing Christians, you've got Acts 2, the people who were probably responsible for putting Jesus on the cross Himself. And if those people can become Christians, then I think that any of us are seeing that place of there's no barrier there, that if we're willing to put our faith in the Lord and trust in His promises and look to follow His ways and let Him be King, then only we ourselves can stand in the the way in that. Just thinking of how Paul says it to Timothy, "I receive mercy for this reason, that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." If I can be saved, you can be saved. And it's not again about Paul pointing to himself and saying, "I'm so bad." Paul uses that statement to point to this is how amazing and loving and patient Jesus is. So while we do a lot of time fighting with Paul about who's the chiefest of sinners, we probably need to make sure we're spending our time focusing and putting our eyes on Jesus, where Paul wants us to have our eyes in the first place. And I think if I had to take away, I've heard somebody talk about how Paul will talk about other people. When you look through the epistles, he loves to lift up people and build people up. That just makes me think, man, what was Barnabas like if he was the son of encouragement? Because I can read Paul and I can I can see all the things that he says to encourage people. Barnabas must have been like overboard in a good way, of course. But all the things that Paul does to lift people up, to show love to people, to encourage people, you know what he doesn't do? He doesn't bad mouth the guys who threw stones at him in Lystra, which I imagine is probably a hard thing to do. I imagine you remember those guys and some of them being from that part Asia minor, maybe not necessarily the guys that he grew up with, but all the Pharisees who turn on him, all the Jews who caused him so much anguish and turmoil, anybody who's wronged him in the past. I mean, there'll be times where Paul will call out people and need anything about Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demus, people like that who are living in sin or opposing God. So Paul has some things to say about that. But Paul is a beautiful example of not grumbling, of not holding a grudge, that I think that a lot of people could learn from and take. I don't know if you've ever been this person. I know I've been this person too many times of being a conversation and someone's name gets brought up. And all I can think about is, man, there was one time seven years ago, that guy, he didn't open a door for her. He was rude or didn't say something like blah, blah, blah. And that's like all you remember. And then 20 years later, you hear his name again, you still think about that grudge. Paul doesn't show any of that in his writing. And so rather than tearing people down, I wanna take away that Paul's constantly building people up and ultimately building up Jesus and pointing him out and bringing him out for people to come to him. There's a lot of people in the world who like to tear people down, aren't there? I'm sure that's never brought up on the news or social media or anything like that. But I think we could learn from Paul to build up people and to encourage people. I think that's one of my favorite points about Paul, honestly. I mean, just how many times that he lets his love for people totally blow away any sort of frustration or grumpiness he might have about somebody's past or what they've done before. He totally is the embodiment of 1 Corinthians 13 and a lot of his interactions with people, you know, just forgetting the past, letting go of things and really focusing on what's important. And I was thinking here too, he is also very bold. And I think that's what I appreciate about him so much is he really wasn't afraid to stand up against sin. And there were times where, yeah, he did have to call people out to their face and tell people like, these people need to be marked. You need to watch out for these people. need to get these people out of your midst. He was not afraid to stand and fight for people's holiness and purity. And even to the point where he calls out another apostle face to face for his hypocrisy, he gets onto the Galatians for their backsliding and the Corinthians for their divisiveness. Like he is not afraid to come with a rod. He really does kind of remind me of a father in some way, you know, that he really looks at himself as being this sort of leader among people, not that he's self-important in any way, but like, he sees that he has the responsibility to come in there and do the hard thing, have the tough conversations. And he is an ambassador. He never lost sight of that. He never lost that idea that he was pointing people back to Jesus. And so it was always about Jesus. Like we've been saying constantly on this episode, he was bold. He came in there and said what needed to be said and at the same time, like Jeff said, I think he was so careful and so loving and really chose his moments well. And so what I take away from Paul's example here is that boldness isn't brashness. It's not like a bull in a china shop. It's careful and it's calculated. And there's something that we really have to take seriously when we come and get in people's face about their sin. And that's such an important part of of living among other people, among other believers, is like really shaking people and saying, you need to come to your senses, and letting them do that to you when it's time for them to do that to you. I think Ephesians 6, Paul says it really well. He says that he's asking them to pray also for him that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly as I ought to speak. He definitely understood that he was in it for Christ and he was just gonna need to say the tough things because that's what people need. And he loved people so much that, of course, he had to step in and say those difficult things. - Yeah, the idea of him facing down someone right there at the beginning of his ministry when you're at least the recorded ministry of his missionary journeys. And what did he say to the sorcerer there? you son of the devil or something like that in X-12. - Realized, taken it easy. - Yeah, yeah. Hey buddy. Yeah, he hits hard when he sees that he needs to hit, but he has this tenderness, he has that willingness to forgive, to let go of things. I think of John Mark and the split that he and Barnabas had over who should we bring with us, who's gonna be the best person. Maybe split is too strong, but they really did go their separate ways. And then he says at the end of, I think 2 Timothy 4, "Hey, send John Mark, 'cause he's helpful to me." He was ready to take him back under his arm and work with him. And here's a young servant that needed to grow up a little bit. He comes across, I think in 1 Thessalonians 2, he describes himself both as a father and as a mother. Which kind of goes with both of your points. He knows when he needs that fatherly tone and that correction, whatever it is. He knows when he needs that motherly tone. It's a neat aspect of how he works with people. He's just building up, tearing down what needs to be torn down, but then building up again and just a master at developing people. - All right, so this has been our conversation of Paul. I mean, we literally could go on all night about this, but let's move on to our third segment and that is our Reach Out question. ♪ Reach out, reach out and touch someone ♪ - So our reach out question for this week is, who is a figure of faith that has made a major impact on you and how? And we're probably moving beyond Paul, though we could continue on that, but who else besides Paul do you think of when you think of these figures of faith that have affected you, Jeff? - I just went back through the bracket again and I originally filled out my bracket, put everybody down. Probably didn't even really register that Mary Magdalene was there. I was just like saw Paul. Yeah, he's winning move on From there, but this past Sunday in Bible class We spent time in John 20 and Mary Magdalene has just been on my mind in my heart a lot Ironic since she was the first round loser to Paul But here she is as someone who's really been I've been thinking about a lot just seeing her faith her love Her clinginess I saw some people who were really emphasizing that which is kind of an ironic thing to think about some things that Jesus says in John 20 about all that. But just as I think about that, anytime I read John 20, I almost immediately go listen to Rabbini and then Thomas's song because reading that chapter and then hearing those songs, I know that maybe those weren't the exact words or exact thoughts that Mary had on that first day of the week. The Bible doesn't say those exact things of, you know, "You were there when the world was turned against me, when the darkness had possessed my soul, you turned and made me whole." But that, I think, really puts Mary in a different perspective as someone who probably could have also existed in the small roles, big faith area, region of your bracket. If she wasn't in the early disciples, she has like almost no page time. It's like a couple of verses here and there. She's like not even in John's gospel until right before he dies at the crucifixion. Just mentioned briefly in Luke about how she had seven demons and how she was part of those women who were there serving with Jesus. But a woman whose life was just so drastically changed by Jesus, I don't know what it's like to have seven demons possessing you, but I'm guessing the word miserable is probably a good baseline. To see that the Spirit inspired John to include her story and, like I mentioned, her clingingness. I know Jesus says to her in verse 17, "Don't cling to me." But clinging is something that I'm trying to work on in my relationship with God. I've been preaching through Deuteronomy some, and when we go into Deuteronomy 10, not long ago, I was reminded of Deuteronomy chapter 10 and verse 20, and especially in the New American Standard Bible that verse says, "You shall fear the Lord your God, you shall serve Him and hold fast," or the New American Standard says, "Cling to Him and by His name you shall swear." I think I really need to work on God isn't just somebody who I'll go and grab from the other room when I need Him. When things are going really good and I want to give Him a high five and say thanks, or when things are really bad and I'm saying, "Hey, I need you to step in here." But just the thought of every moment of every day, I need Him to be right here with me, along with me and just thinking about somebody who were being told that by Moses or even being shown that by Mary. Again, I know that Jesus tells her, don't cling and there's other things you need to go do, but that's a picture that's stuck in my mind, at least for right now. And hopefully it'll be stuck in my mind for a while thinking this is the type of relationship I need to have with the Lord as I'm one of his disciples of just wanting to be close to him and having that type of faith and love that she does. That's so cool. Mary was definitely a top one in our family as well. I picked Daniel as my favorite person on the bracket. Not that I thought he would win everything, but I was really surprised by the way that Daniel got knocked out as quickly as he did. I mean, yeah, he was going against Moses, so that's probably part of it. But from my youngest age, thinking about his story, obviously it resonates with a lot of little kids. You know, as you really start to grow up and see Daniel and maybe the depth of his experience, he was just a committed and prayerful person who was focused on purity and all the while, he was so respectful to authority. He was under control in all of the ways that he was bucking the trend of the government and all the laws during his time. But you also see how he kind of parallels, in my mind, the book of 1 Peter, how his whole life is really focused on purity, living a new life, but also just making sure that we live within the confines of our society in a way that's respectful and a way that nobody's gonna look at us and think that we're just a rebel or that we're some kind of law breaker. I mean, he could have been viewed that way. He definitely just stuck to his guns and allowed the Lord to lead him gracefully through each of these situations. So I love Daniel's example. And for me, he just really stands out as somebody who helps me see how to live and exist in a world that's difficult and challenging. And I may not feel home here, hopefully every day I'm able to still have an impact like somebody like Daniel did. - I see what you mean about first Peter there, that he's a sojourner, an alien in exile. And yet he, yeah, amongst all of the people who believe differently than he does, eat different food, don't understand why he needs to pray three times a day, why he does the things he does, He finds a way to live honorably, to have the people around him, even the king really value and respect him, but he stays true, resolutely true to the Lord. That's a great example. I was thinking of another prophet, Isaiah. - Ooh, the naked prophet. - Yeah, the naked. - Yes. (both laughing) - Yep, the naked prophet, as I'm sure he's glad he is known by in this podcast, It was ousted in the first round to Paul's eventual challenger in the championship matchup, Joseph. He wrote just the most beautiful words. I just can't imagine my life without having read Isaiah. It's like my thoughts about Paul. It's just these words have been my way of knowing these people. And I understand, of course, the Holy Spirit is guiding them and, and that God deserves all the glory, but I'm so thankful to God that he gave us prophets like this who have these gifts and this ability to share words that change just how you see everything. And think about Isaiah 53, think about Isaiah 55, Isaiah 1, Isaiah 2, Isaiah 6. I say, "Should I skip a chapter really?" I mean, there's so many things in the book of Isaiah that is quoted more than anything else besides the Psalms in the New Testament, clearly shaped people's understanding of the Messiah and of the gospel. I mean, you really find the whole gospel truth of the story in the Old Testament. Before you get there, I was just thinking about Isaiah 40 and like the way it ends. And I'm just going to read these verses and it'll tell you why I'm picking Isaiah. So it feels bad even just not reading the whole chapter, but verse 28 says, have Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the creator of the ends of the earth. He doesn't faint or grow weary. His understanding is unsearchable. He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength. Even youths shall faint and be weary, and young men shall fall exhausted. But they who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings like eagles. They shall run and not be weary. They shall walk and not faint. So I love these picks. I love Daniel, I love Mary Magdalene. That's why I picked Isaiah's just these words though. Your naked point is taken, Bryan as well. That's commitment. That's commitment to a point, to a walking, living parable you want to make. That's right. Yeah. So many great servants. I loved this whole exercise of going through and thinking about these figures of faith. and boy, we could have made at least a 64 name bracket if we wanted to have more rounds of this thing. - Yeah, that would have been intense. And everything has its end and this bracket is over, although we could have gone on longer. Let us also wrap up this episode with our challenge for this week. - I am ready to face any challenges that might be foolish enough to face me. - Okay, so our challenge this week is to ask someone else about their favorite figure of faith. That's really a lot of what we wanted to do with these brackets is just to generate some conversation about the Lord and his word. So, you know, go up to a kid, to somebody who's been serving the Lord for 60 years, to somebody and just ask them, Hey, who's your favorite person in the Bible and why, and I bet you'll have just a really enriching and interesting conversation. Yeah. My daughter is incensed at this moment that Esther did not make it all the through. My shoe is livid right now. I know there were also a lot of other people on social media, even people having conversations on the side about how they felt like everything was rigged because the bracket wound up not going their way because their favorite figure of faith lost out in the first round, I guess. Like you said, Bryan, there's just that's March Madness right there is that things gotta get busted. There's gonna be some type of heartbreak. It's so good. All right. Thanks everybody for tuning in to the Bible Geeks podcast. And thank you to Jeff for being on the show, for being our very first non-relative guest. - Hey. - So exciting. - It was a lot of fun. It's been my pleasure. I really enjoyed it. And I'm looking forward to the rest of the year with y'all, but looking forward to another bracket coming up, hopefully next year too. - We should definitely do it. My mom was telling me today that she's really looking forward to the villains bracket, maybe at some point. So I might have to do that. So if folks want to find you Jeff online, where can they find you? Is there anything that you've got going on these days that people should tune in for? Nothing specific. I mean, you can always go check out Working With The Word. Judson Road has a YouTube page. That's where we update most of our stuff. You want to find out stuff about us. This is the online stuff. You can find me on most social media besides Twitter. I don't understand Twitter, so I just don't even know. But if you're in East Texas, swing by Longview sometime. We'd love to have you. All right, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in to the Bible Geeks Podcast. You can find us on our website at BibleGeeks.fm. You can find show notes for this episode in your podcast player of choice, or at BibleGeeks.fm/173. We will be taking a break next week, but then after that we will be coming back with our third guided study where we'll be talking to ourselves in a series called Talking to Yourself. So, looking forward to that. And until two weeks from now, may the Lord bless you and keep you. Shalom. [MUSIC PLAYING]